The Dodgers and pitcher Rich Hill have agreed to terms. The southpaw will wear Dodger Blue for the next three years, and the team will pay Hill the big green to the amount of $48 million smackeroos. Here’s how it breaks down:
He’ll receive an upfront signing bonus of $2 million.
2017: $12 million
2018: $16 million
2019: $18 million
The contract is backloaded, so Hill must remain healthy if he expects to cash in the entire payday – and therein lies the rub. Can the man remain healthy for an entire season?
Before being traded to LA by the Oakland A’s, he was sidelined with a groin injury. When he arrived here, he brought a bothersome finger blister that kept a big question mark over his head for a month. Many of the Dodgers faithful wondered if he would ever pan out.
When Hill finally took the mound with some consistency, he was brilliant. The southpaw wowed the Dodgers and their fans almost every time he pitched. He almost became only the 24th man in history to pitch a perfect game, but he was pulled by his manager before he could accomplish the near-impossible feat. The reason given: that darn blister.
When the Dodgers faced the Cubs in the NLCS, Rich Hill delivered yet again. His trademark curveballs kept the Cubs lineup quiet, stiking out six, and allowing just two hits.
Hill finished the year with a 12W 5L record and a 2.12 ERA.
It makes sense the Dodgers would want Hill to remain as their number two starter behind Kershaw. If he remains healthy, he may give Clayton a run for the claim as the best southpaw on the squad.
Oscar Martinez
I was born in the shadow of Dodger Stadium and immediately drenched in Dodger Blue. Chavez Ravine is my baseball cathedral, Vin Scully was the golden voice of summer all my life, and Tommy Lasorda remains the greatest Dodgers manager ever. My favorite things are coffee, beer, and the Dodgers beating the Giants. I also blog about my baseball card hobby at All Trade Bait, All the Time.
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Good luck with watching Hill pitch every 5 days. That is the issue, actually.
The Dodgers traded for Hill at the deadline. In 2 months he made 6 starts.
Before the Dodgers got him he had been out for weeks with the same blister ailment but had also missed a month with a groin strain.
If he pitches more than the 111 innings that he pitched last year I will be pleasantly surprised.
The Dodgers are currently trying to move both Kazmir and McCarthy to make room on the 40 man and to shed payroll to add other players. Ryu is probably done for his career.
The argument that Bluto makes about this being a good signing seems to be that Hill for 50 or 100 innings has more value than an “innings eater” who will show up and pitch every 5 days but not be much more than replacement value. This all depends on how important that you think that it is to show up and pitch.
Hill won’t have any value when he doesn’t pitch. The Dodgers are betting on the come that Hill will pitch more than he has in the past. That calculation hasn’t worked out so well with McCarthy, Anderson or Kazmir.
I disagree with the concluding sentence of your penultimate paragraph.
If your baseline is a replacement level pitcher eating innings, then the Dodgers are covered. For in the days Hill won’t go, the team will have one of:
McCarthy/Kazmir/Stewart/Stripling to go. Maybe even Ryu or De Leon.
That’s Mike Leake level. That’s depth.
Hello bluto, it’s Paul. Stewart, Stripling DeLeon are who I would consider if and whenever Hill cannot go. Hopefully dodgers can work out some deal to move both McCarthy and Kazmir, which would give some innings to those younger pitchers on this roster.
No opinion on this……their money, not mine….Giants get Melancon……4 years 60 plus million dollars….
Gotta agree with Bluto on this one.
There aren’t many pitchers out there of Hill’s quality. Leake isn’t in the same league as Hill.
The depth that everyone tells us we have means that we can use Hill sparingly, like we did the last couple of months of the season.
If Doc had needed him to pitch, he would have – but it never came to that as we always had the Division in our own hands.
We kept him fresh for the playoffs & he beat the Cubs & I would have been more than happy for him to pitch game 7 if we hadn’t already have blown it.
Looking at the deals that are being handed out, the cost of pitching is going up.
It looks to me like we just signed the best FA pitcher on the market.
What’s not to like?
His fragility…………
His fragility is why you’re getting a potential ace for 16mm per.
They don’t get that. They want the second coming of Cy Young and a personal guarantee from God himself that he’ll never get injured…and then want to get him for a pittance because…ya know. .if the FO was really all that smart they’d be able to pull this off.
Potential???? The guy is 37 years old. He has pitched more than 200 innings once in his entire career. Last year was only the 2nd time he has won in double figures. There are a lot of guys a lot younger who are POTENTIAL aces. Guy has been on the DL a lot more than he has been active. Thats real smart spending but of course all of you faz nuts think this is depth. They have a ton of depth at starter without signing the walking freaking dead. It has nothing to do with wanting the 2nd coming of Koufax or anyone else. They have over 80 million dollars invested in the walking dead……Kazmir, McCarthy and Hill. If, and this is a big IF, they all are healthy and produce, FAZ is a freakin genius…..if 2 or more of them go on the DL for extended periods of time, which is more likely considering their combined track records, he is a moron. They have the depth to make a trade for a decent #2. But they are probably going to use those to fix the mess that is the infield right now. I get that Hill is a cheap fix. If you think 48 million is cheap. You are a FAZ guy and you like this deal. I am not down with the FAZIDIOT at all. That is my opinion and only time will tell who is right and wrong. This is cutting payroll? They say one thing and do another. Confusing to say the least. My opinion will always be different than you because you are brainwashed by these guys. I have never been a company pony and never will be. They do something I think is stupid and I will say so. If it happens and these guys do the job they have recieved millions to do, well I will eat crow. But I seriously doubt that will be happening.
Well said.
Rich Hill has never pitched 200 innings. He pitched 195 ten years ago. I would not be surprised if he doesn’t pitch 200 innings total the next three years.
I have to hand it to him. In his last chance to get generations of Hill’s set up for life, he did it, and he did with with 20 starts and only 110 innings pitched. He doesn’t have to get close to 195 IP, and he won’t, he has a smile from here to age 80, courtesy of the Dodgers. Well played Rich.
I love this rant for so many reasons.
First, because it’s passionate.
Second, because JUST in the last thread the author wrote the following:
“I realize that complaining about who they sign or trade for is a waste of energy. So I am not going to say anything about the deals that they make until I see what they look like in spring. Everything between now and then will only give us an idea of who they have to work with.”
It seems those thoughts lasted but a day? Half a day?
Third, because of this rambling stream of thoughts from the current rant:
” I get that Hill is a cheap fix. If you think 48 million is cheap. You are a FAZ guy and you like this deal. I am not down with the FAZIDIOT at all. ”
It’s hard to follow Michael’s logic here, but I think his logic is:
Michael = knowing Hill is a cheap fix
FAX guys = people who think Hill’s dead is cheap
ergo:
Michael = FAZ guy?!??!??!
Fourth, I love when people just start name calling. FAXIDIOT, moron.
Finally, Michael’s own demarcation:
if 2 or more of them go on the DL for extended periods of time, which is more likely considering their combined track records, he is a moron.
Reminder: Kershaw went on the DL or missed an extended period of time last year. Here are some other players who did as well:
Mike LEake
Craig Kimbrell
Strasburg
Javier Baez
Yeah Bluto, you got it right, I could not restrain myself because I just get very frustrated. But this I guarantee you, I am no FAZ lover at all. I think 48 million for Hill is moronic………and not cheap. There should have been a comma there so it would have looked like this….I get it that hill is a cheap fix, if you think 48 million is cheap….changes the whole feel of the rant. Passionate? Damn right I am and as for calling him names, I like doing that. …I have a couple for Obama and Hillary, and these two have them too. But that’s just me. Kershaw went on the DL yes, but he does not have a track record of being FRAGILE, where as Kazmir, McCarthy, Anderson and Hill do. Big difference. I remember Ned signing Hung Chi Kuo who had Tommy John 3 times. But I digress, I am no fan of this front office and in all likelihood I never will be because in my humble opinion they will find a way to screw this team up.
I can’t help but envision a rather crusty older man yelling at the TV, and probably while watching Fox News.
Actually, I really did like Gran Torino. I thought it was one of Clint’s best directorial/producer efforts. In some ways better than Million Dollar Baby.
Crusty? Probably..only problem with the analogy is that I do not watch Fox news. I do not watch the news period. Seen enough in my life time to know that in the last few years the news and the media is very slanted.
I’m not saying Leake is all that BUT I bet he gets more wins over the next 3 years than Hill. Some of you are seeing things through your Dodger blue glasses. Shortly into the season if not sooner the light will come on. If you or anyone else believe that a 37 y/o pitcher will be healthier than he was when he was 27 than believe that. He did everything in his power to stay healthy and pitch well last season for this one contract. Still only managed to pitch 110 innings. Watch how this plays out.
“Hopefully the Dodgers can work out some deal to move both McCarthy and Kazmir….. ”
Don’t be surprised if we are saying the same thing about Hill after next year.
Just so we are clear – Hill gets paid, whether or not he is healthy!
Maybe insurance will help pay some of that DL time.
I lean toward bluto’s perspective with one caveat, that if Hill only starts 16 games, those games better be important ones . I know, every game counts.
The Dodgers will have no control as to whether tissue-paper Hill will be available for “the important ones” or not – he will be available when he is available and if he’s not healthy for the post-season, oh well I guess.
If he can’t pitch he doesn’t help, whether he makes $16MM/year or not.
…”tissue-paper Hill ” That is something Box might say.
Toilet Paper Hill. Just kidding with the cartoon.
Dustin Nosler clearly “gets it.”
Read it if you are inclined… unless your minds are already make up:
http://dodgersdigest.com/2016/12/05/official-dodgers-re-sign-rich-hill-to-3-year-deal/
Dustin concludes with: But for now, this is a no-brainer signing for the Dodgers. You can’t get elite production from a starting pitching for $16 million without there being risk involved, and, as we’ve seen, this front office is not opposed to taking risks.
Some risks pay and others don’t… which is why they are risks. I think this is a calculated one.
Jansen is as good as gone and Melancon get 4 years and $62 million. That might be a dope-fiend move.
The goal is to mitigate risk – not to take risks.
You want to get the closest thing to a sure thing when you pay millions to an athlete to play a game for money. Obviously, there are no sure things, but Hill’s track record tells anyone who wants to look that there is a greater than average risk that his arm will fall off:
1 – Injury history
2 – Effectiveness (or ineffectiveness) history
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hillri01.shtml
The best predictor of future performance is past performance.
This is not an acceptable risk in my view.
In baseball that aphorism is not always true. If so, minor leaguers who would struggle at the big league level will continue to toil away in futility in perpetuity. Likewise, players age out and decline. Would we have expected the journeyman utility player profile of Justin Turner to turn on its head and have him become the player he is today? I don’t think you could have predicted that. A player, even at a later stage in his career, can fundamentally change an approach to the game by perhaps learning a new pitch or overcoming a persistently nagging injury. Hill’s been very very good for the last two years. He is trending upwards. I find it unconvincing the claim that he is injury prone due to age or just predilection when his injury that has caused him the most time on the DL has been blisters – hardly a geriatric condition.
Look, the Dodgers opened up the checkbook and took a proactive step to improve the starting pitching. What is the problem? With all of this negative energy and fulminating directed at this trade, what really is the alternative? Do you really want to keep things status quo? That will certainly give you something to complain about….which, if you think about it, is really the primary motivation for a few here. It is cathartic.
So really, what is the alternative? Sorry….can’t go back to the 60s and resurrect Koufax and Drysdale. Ship has sailed. What?…the Dodgers should have paid a billion dollars for Greinke? Sorry…ship has sailed (and maybe a bullet dodged). Looks like the Nats are working on a deal for Sale. It that what you want? Well, who do you want to give up? I’ve give you a hint, it’ll take more than Kike and a bag of balls.
Forget risk, why are Rich Hill and elite production in the same sentence? Never mind I’ll go read the article.
Who said anything about an elite pitcher? The question is not acquiring an elite pitcher as there were none on the market. The question most have is, can we get a 180+ inning 4 or less ERA pitcher for $16 million. The answer to that is WE can’t, but those guys are all over the league. I don’t even have to research it to know that’s true. Hell SF had three of them this year!
No brainer. So those who aren’t excited about this FAZtastic move are without brains.
Preaching to the choir there Badger. I would rather see them pitch Kershaw and Maeda, and 3 of the kids than run the same kind of garbage we had to watch last year. Never knowing if your starter is going to make it past the 5th inning gets old real fast. They can quote their stats and graphs and whatever, but to the poor schmuck who paid 75 bucks to watch that crap, it gets old real fast. It is like watching a game here in Colorado at Coor’s Field. Your team gets 10 runs and you lose. With Jansen most likely getting a monster contract, and Blanton gone, I do not even trust the bull pen. They are not going to give Chapman 6 years like he wants. Jansen and he will get way above the 62 million Melancon got from the Gnats. At this point in time I could care less if they disagree with my posts or not. Bluto, Dodgerick and Mark are Faz lovers and think they do no wrong and are the smartest guys on the planet. My take is that neither Freidman nor Fahdi has ever won crap and there fore has no clue how to make a championship team. They know how to build up a farm system and sell their best players to other teams before they get to expensive for them and that is about it. So I care less what those guys think about my takes. If they disagree, tough….too bad they cannot find a player like the one in the picture attached to this…
1. I can’t speak for Bluto, but I am not a FAZ lover and I know Dodgerrick isn’t, so I don’t know what that is about. I like a lot of what they have done, but I am neutral on Hill.
2. I merely present the other side of the argument when someone like you presents a bombastic, illogical and even fictitious argument based upon nothing factual.
3. Is Blanton gone? I have not heard that. Maybe you have access to info I don’t!
4. They know how to build up a farm system and sell their best players to other teams before they get to expensive for them and that is about it. That’s a joke right? You don’t really believe that?
I’m a fan, and amused by the knee-jerky reaction of those who aren’t. Amused, but I respect it.
I’m a fan because to me process > results. And I can understand the process of Hill, Kazmir, McCarthy, Beachy and Anderson.
A final query for all of you who aren’t happy with the Hill signing, even for those ambivalent like Timmons:
What is your alternative plan to get 3-5 WAR from a starting pitcher for 16mm?
Well, you trade for Sale. Who is below that salary. That’s one way to do it. By the way, as it breaks down, Hill gets a 2 million dollar signing bonus and a 12 million dollar salary this year. And in my book, I am sorry, signing injury prone over the hump dead arms is not a process, it is ridiculous. And that is not a knee jerk reaction, that is frustration built up from having to watch said dead arms trotted out there the last couple of years. At least I had Greinke for 3 years to ease the pain. Never assume to think that you know why someone is thinking something and never assume you are the know all end all on other peoples take on this FO……..you criticize, fine, but expect blowback..that being said, I dislike the way they do business, and I dislike the fact that they have done nothing at the trade deadline to make this team a champion. That was what ownership promise when they came in…..and they have not done it. Hill-Reddick? Ridiculous.,,,,they needed a RH hitting masher who kills lefty’s and they blew it period….and lost 3 good arms in the process.
Three questions:
1. What are you giving up for Sale? I ask because here’s what they want currently from other teams (Moncada, Bradley and a P from BoSox, Giolitto, Robles and Turner from Nats)
2. How is finding and signing injured pitchers and hoping they outperform their contract not a process?
3. What’s the blowback
I admire your Olympian detachment, looking down on we mere peons with such amusement. Such noblesse oblige.
I never understand your comment that process > results. If the process doesn’t have results then the process has failed.
As to your comment about Hill as a 3 – 5 WAR pitcher, look to Baseball Reference.com
He has done that exactly 2 times – last year and in 2007. After a 13 year major league career, he has 9.5 WAR. On average, he is less than 1.0 WAR/season.
Not exactly a sure thing.
Hi Rick,
Thanks, I think, for the note on my tone.
Process > Results because results are impacted by a number of factors which can never be forseen or pre-empted. Injuries, unforseen turns in player development, chemistry issues, off-the-field accidents. Like tanking, for instance, it worked great for the Cubs, but for the Pirates? Less well. Similarly the Astros, will their tanking turn into Championships? I’m dubious, but the process was, IMO, correct for them.
Finally Hill. Ah, Rich Hill. He’s kind of a unique bird, no? As fangraphs puts it in a great article, I’ll link to at the bottom,
Rich Hill is, probably, the most fascinating free agent in recent memory.
“On the one hand, he’s a frontline pitcher in a market starved for pitching, the only guy available you can really imagine handing the ball to in a playoff game and liking your chances of winning that day… On the other hand, saying things like “since the start of the 2015 season” makes it sound like Hill’s dominance extends back further than it actually does.”
I definitely don’t think we should reference back to 2007, in many ways you could say that the current iteration of Rich Hill only dates back to his post-Bannister (post-Red Sox) days, after he turned into a curve balling machine. In 2015 he “only” had a 1.1 WAR (to your point) but that was only for 29 innings pitched. Scale that out a bit, call it poetic license, and I’ll stand by my 3-5 WAR range.
Here’s that Rich Hill risk article I referenced:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/rich-hill-is-just-a-different-kind-of-risk/
Risk defined: “A probability or threat of damage, injury, liability, loss, or any other negative occurrence that is caused by external or internal vulnerabilities, and that may be avoided through preemptive action.” (Courtesy of Business Dictionary .com)
The issue here is risk. Given the history of injury and poor performance prior to September 2015, is the Dodgers’ signing Hill to $48MM for 3 years an acceptable risk? Isn’t the likelihood of injury or poor performance significant given the investment? How can the Dodgers rely on him to be there when he is needed?
Hasn’t the front office learned anything from the last 2 years of old and infirm?
This is the problem with “process” – making the same mistake over and over again and calling it “good”.
Rick,
I would argue the issue here is not JUST risk, it’s risk and upside. Upside’s very important, especially with Hill. His upside is exceptional.
Fundamental to my perspective is the cost vs. what he can deliver. 16mm is not a huge amount. As someone else mentioned it’s what Kazmir got, and Hill’s upside is much greater than Kazmir’s. Obviously Kazmir hasn’t worked out, but Process > Results. 🙂
I also don’t agree with bringing Kazmir, McCarthy and Anderson into the conversation. It’s an incredibly small sample size, no common traits (other than a very general age range) and the injuries are different. It’s not like we’re talking about actuarial tables.
Track record says yes. I am sorry for calling you a FAZ lover. I just have seen you defend them a lot. look, Friedman won a pennant with the Rays, and they locked up exactly one player on that team, Longoria. The core of that team is long gone to other organizations including the manager. Bombastic,? That is your opinion Mark, one which I do not share and it is far from illogical. Everything I said is true. Pretty much from the start of the season, except when Kersh started, you had no clue how deep those guys could go. According to all I have read, they have not even contacted Blanton’s agent. And if they signed him someone would have to be cut since they are at 40 men. They have not shown they are championship guys. The A’s won bupkis while Zaidi was there. Of course he is not the big cheese in the A’s refrigerator. Look, I love the team, and you can disagree with me all you want, criticize too, that is your right. But as such, so am I entitled to my opinion of their team building skills which I find sadly lacking. And if you enjoy watching a team that is as boring as these guys have been, more power to you.
I heard Cubs are giving Joey Pancakes a cut of their postseason earnings and a replica ring. ?
I fear you’re right about the FAZ level of ability Michael, but I’m not ready to give up on them yet. I don’t like what they’ve done to the Dodgers, I don’t like platoon baseball, but I recognize for the time being this is who we are.
I said it before and I’ll say it again – I would like to see them follow the Epstein model, not the Oakland Bay Rays model. But, it would appear they’re not going to do that. We will have another year like the last two, with the # of wins likely trending down. The other teams in the NL are going to do what they can to get by us, and if we lose Turner and Jansen without equal replacement, I think we’re gonna get caught and passed. We’re not getting better. Not yet. There is still time. Let’s see what’s next. Maybe in a few years we will be less about platoons and more about fielding All Stars.
Btw, looks like Duke popped that one up.
Hi Badger,
What is the Epstein model?
Didn’t he take two different paths with the Red Sox and Cubs?
What is the Epstein model? I’m gonna assume you aren’t pulling my lanyard with that question.
When asked “will it work”, the answer was “not right away”.
“We knew this would take some time”
http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/10622213/theo-epstein-plans-rebuild-chicago-cubs-blueprint-boston-espn-magazine
But that’s different than his Red Sox path, right?
He inherited Manny, Varitek and, most importantly, Pedro.
Didn’t he sign some failed big names with the Sox? JD Drew, the lamentable Carl Crawford, and Lackey when Lackey sucked.
Yeah, he did……but even popping out he was sooooooooooooo much fun to watch.
I saw him hit one into the darkness beyond the fence in right field at the Coliseum. Didnt even see it land.
I miss the Lasorda teams with the starting 8 running in the OF before the game. Those guys were pros.
I don’t understand your characterization of me as a “Faz lover”. I have been critical of the Braintrust most of the time (not always – you have to be objective about these things) and I am not a fan of this signing as it appears to me to be more of the same – what I have previously referred to as building a pitching staff by signing the “old and infirm”.
Hill can’t pitch if he’s not healthy and if he can’t pitch the Dodgers get nothing for their $48MM. (Like Anderson, McCarthy and Kazmir.) It isn’t depth if he can’t pitch.
My mistake there Rick I do apologize……
i agree with michael . let win or get rid of them
Done ranting for today…….waste of energy anyway……….but WTF, nobody really cares anyway. The man pictured below belongs in the HOF more than Bud Selig does….
That’s for sure… Does anyone realize they just gave Turner’s money to Hill?
Wondering
It better not be Turner’s money!
Crasnick sez:
The Dodgers are “aggressively” checking out alternatives at third base in case free agent Justin Turner goes elsewhere, an MLB source said. Turner is still the team’s No. 1 option, but the Dodgers are being careful to protect themselves in case things fail to work out. Luis Valbuena is the second best 3B option on the free agent market this winter, while Todd Frazier and Yangervis Solarte are among the top trade options at the position.
His postseason collapses hurt his cause but if Ron Santo can go in so can Gil Hodges and Maury Wills.
Michael:
You are spot on about Gilly being in the hall of fame. He is my all-time favorite. Pee Wee Reese is in the HOF and Gilly isn’t?
At the very LEAST the Dodgers should retire or not give out #14. Just like Jim Gilliam’s # hasn’t been given out to my knowledge.
You are correct,,,,differenceis Jr.s number is retired…
I understand everyone’s concern, and if some don’t, I don’t know what to say.
McCarthy and Kazmir should have never been signed to these multi year contracts, and there lack of any real good production, says it all.
Along with the fact that the front office is trying to shop them right now.
The problem with these signings, is that these pitchers, didn’t have enough upside, to take this big of a risk with them.
Hill does have a much better upside, then these other pitchers, so some of the risk is ok.
Most of the people upset with Hill’s signing, wouldn’t be quite as upset, if Anderson, McCarthy, and Kazmir were never signed.
The fact is this will be the third pitcher that this front office has signed, with with a long injury history, and that is why a lot of people are upset.
And Kazmir had already been given a multi year contract, not to long ago.
And that team had to let Kazmir go, because he was inefffective, and that team had to take a loss.
But after this signing, I don’t want to hear that Turner will be to much money.
He is more important to our team, then Hill.
And we don’t have anyone that can come close to Turner’s production, in this organization, both offensively and defensively.
And we also don’t have anyone to take Kenley’s place either, so we do need Kenley, or a closer that is comparable.
I am waiting to see what they do, until I decide about the signing of Hill.
But this does seem a little to much to give to a pitcher, that is in his late thirties, that has a long injury history, that we know won’t make all of his starts.
And I imagine Mark is neutral on this, because of the amount.
But like I said above, I want to see what happens with Turner and Kenley now.
All signs point to Jansen being gone, and Turner being a possibility.
I saw Chapman wants 6 years, that’s way too much term for me.
Bluto
After this post season, I would take Kenley over Chapman.
I hope they won’t get McCuthen, because he hit only in the low 200 against lefties last year, and his power numbers, are mainly against righties too.
I saw they were talking about Lorenzo Cain, and about the Royal’s closer too.
Cain doesn’t have that many HRs, but he hit 375 against lefties last year.
Depth. I guess many don’t understand what that means… or don’t want to understand.
When you won’t sign the Cuetos, Prices and the Leakes, you sign guys who offer upside but have questions… but you sign them to under $50 million dollar deals.
McCarthy and Kaz – don’t be so quick to rush to judgement. It could brand you as something you might not want to be.
Mike Leake has a 5 year/$80 million deal with the Cards. The Dodgers signed Kazmir for 3 years/$48 million (Backloaded).
Leake (2016) – 9-12 – 4.69 ERA – 176 IP – 203 Hits – 1.319 WHIP
Kazmir (2016) – 10-6 – 4.56 ERA – 136 IP – 133 Hits – 1.357 WHIP
Who is the IDIOT who wants Leake over Kazmir?
FAZ doesn’t sign long-term deals because they have huge depth in starting pitching. But they aren’t depth if they don’t pitch.
What? Are you totally devoid of any reason? Damn…
Again with the obnoxious insults for anyone who deigns to disagree with the all-knowing Timmons.
I would match my reasoning ability with yours any time.
If they can’t pitch, they can’t pitch – and then you trade for the Bud Norris-types. McCarthy isn’t depth if he isn’t going to pitch – he’s a guy on the DL who makes $48MM for doing nothing but sending out amusing tweets.
Seriously!
Insults are for dingbats! Irony alert.
I had a similar discussion with another poster here. Using insults is so high school, in my opinion. Just make your points and have good discussions!
Leake was never compared to Kazmir. Not on this post or the last.
The statement was made that over the next 3 years, hence the amount of time that Hill was signed for that both Leake and Samardzija each would win more games than Hill. That was my bet and the person hyping Hill did not want to take that bet. Imagine that.
Isn’t the objective to WIN games?
I’m laughing cause FAZ could have signed Hill last off season (remember he was a free agent then as well) and signed him to a 3 year deal for approximately $20M and he would have taken it. So instead we give up 3 top prospects and spend an additional $28M. Now that is some vision.
I’m laughing ’cause the Dodgers could have:
1. Drafted Mike Trout
2. Not signed Ethier to a big deal
3. Traded for Zach Britton in 2012 and converted him to a RP
4. Traded Ryu before he got hurt
5. Never hired Colletti
6. Not have Blanton throw a slider to Montero
7. Signed Daniel Murphy
8. Drafted Mookie Betts
Bluto
After Blanton’s first slider was a hanger, he should have thrown a high fastball, just out of the strike zone.
Or could have hired a President and/or GM that have won before!
Yes it seems there should be more players then Sutton, on those teams from 1974, 1977, and 1981, that went to the World Series in the Hall of Fame too.
They should have won two of those, but they were really out matched against the A’s in 1974, but they would get back at them, in 1988.
To me as a Dodgers fan I’d rather favor replacing the players who aren’t cutting the mustard and/or for any unjust reasoning I simply dislike one for whatever and keeping those who’ve become my heroes regardless. I’d like to think if Dodgers were to trade rosters with the Yankees that I’d cheer for the Yanks (wow!) but don’t know because that won’t ever happen. I should know myself after all this time. There’s too many reasons that are taking the fun out of the picture like loyalty vs royalty and business vs passion. I get rather fond of those who came as mules but are really racehorses, like a natural left handed right throwing catcher turned pitcher elite. Same thing with our 3B that too many had a hard time recognizing there’s talent under that red hair. Keep the bums and dump the flakes. Turner and Jansen whatever the cost! At least that’s how I feel this evening!
Reports say Dodgers interested in Lorenzo Cain and Wade Davis.
Would be interesting. Defensively, late innings the team could go Joc, Cain and Puig. Sheesh.
From a splits perspective, it would allow the team to go Puig, Cain and Thompson with SVS at first against lefties.
That’s taking the platoon thing to the max, but would be interesting.
Have to give up quite a bit I’d imagine. I wonder if Toles has value. Obviously De Leon could be shipped. May need to throw in another.
There was also a report out of Seattle speculating the Mariners could be interested in Kazmir/McCarthy. One or the other.
Bluto
Cain isn’t a platoon player, and when you try to make a player that is an everyday player a platoon player, they usually won’t have the same numbers.
It is hard enough to hit major league pitching, when a player is getting consistent at bats, and it is even harder, when a player, is not getting consistent at bats.
You never get the best of a player, by just playing them part time.
Don’t agree with your final paragraph. If a player has really bad splits, you accommodate that. It’s why you platoon.
Agree about Cain.
My Blanton slider comment was part of me being facetious.
If they have very bad splits I agree, but Cain doesn’t.
I know you were just messing around
What does everyone think Who’s going to man 2nd next year for the Dodgers?
Kinsler
Dozier
Solarte
Harrison
Phillips
Forsythe
Villar
Utley/? platoon
I really don’t have a clue anymore, but I think they’re doing everything possible to upgrade there. There seems to be more noise around Dozier right now and he was at the meetings today promoting Under Armour. He said the Twin’s GM has been keeping him in the loop and updating him so he is definitely getting talked about with other GM’s and despite earlie reports it isn’t with the Yankees. Kinlser is my top choice because the Dodgers need a lead-off hitter and plays better defense, but things have gone quiet. McCutch and Harrison together would be interesting add some speed to a lineup that needs it.. Villar, I don’t think the Brewers would do it. It’s nice to imagine, but I don’t see the Braun-Villar package that would fit so well. Phillips, I don’t believe the Dodgers would want him. It would take a lot of misses on the Dodgers part and a swapping of bad contracts. Forsythe-Archer package also unlikely but nice to think about.
So, I’m guessing Dozier right now, but can see the deal with the Pirates falling into place.
In what way would the Braun, Villar package not fit? Certainly you don’t mean they wouldn’t fit our needs as in Braun who has a lifetime BA in the .330’s vs LHP. or Villar at 2B and a leadoff hitter with 62 SB’s.
Did you mean what we would have to give up in return?
We could start with Puig and McCarthy which was supposedly part of the deal last season and then add Calhoun(who wouldn’t be needed now) then add DeLeon, Verdugo, etc.
Of course no one knows exactly what the bottom line would be but I’m sure it’s doable.
I meant it fits very well but I don’t see Villar getting moved especially after listening to Counsel talk about him today.
Hawkeye
I second that, after watching Counsel talk too!
Hawkeye
McCutchen didn’t hit much at all against lefties last year.
He hit about 220, and hit about 90 percent of his HRs, against righties
I rather have Solarte play second.
He had 15 HRs, and hit just below 290.
Harrison only hit 5 HRs, and his batting average was lower, then Solarte’s.
And Solarte is under team control for the next three years.
He hit .328 vs lefties in 2015.
If not JT , maybe the salarte from San Diego might be a better deal.
From what I have read the market for JT is not that hot. Besides us only the Cards and Braves would be a perfect fit. Not sure about the AL teams.
The Cardinals actually do not need him. If they can get him ‘cheaply’ they might jump on it but they currently have Peralta, Carpenter, Diaz, Wong, Garcia and Gyorko to man 2B, SS & 3B. They currently owe Peralta $10M so I’m assuming they are thinking that if they can get JT at $14-$15M per than maybe upgrade 3B and trade Peralta for organizational depth (or in other words…..a bag of balls).
Chili
Some of those Cardinals infielders, didn’t play very well defensively last year.
Bosox have traded for Sale. A deal for an ace quality, inexpensive, team controllable pitcher is possible for the Sox’ front office.
Exactly!
The Red Sox were on Hill before the Dodgers locked him up.
This is the price you need to pay to get quality in a trade. Moncada is either the top or near the top prospect in all of baseball. Kopech throws 105.
If the Dodgers were to go after Sale, like Michael Norris suggested, as an alternative to Hill. You are probably saying goodbye to Bellinger, Alvarez, Verdugo and Farmer? That’s a big risk.
Risk vs. Reward, right Rick?
That is probably true….but you never know until you try. They probably would have had to give up 5 players. That would have been to high a price, and the Red Sox were willing to make the deal. But do you think trading prospects for Todd Frazier is going to be a smart thing to do? Who is it going to take to land him? You never know until the FO deems who is expendable and who is not. They could sure use the 3 guys they shipped to the A’s last year………..
I’m sure they asked about the price for Sale. I agree would have been too high.
But my question still remains valid (IMHO), how else could you get a 3-5 WAR starting pitcher this off-season?
I’m very meh on Frazier. Maybe trying to create leverage with Turner?
I’m also meh on spending a fortune on a closer.
Bluto
I hope your right about the leverage, but it seems like Turner isn’t getting the interest he should.
I don’t want Fraizer on our team.
He didn’t hit much above the mendosa line last year, and he is an all or nothing hitter.
I do not know where you could get a 3-5 WAR guy unless through a trade, but I still do not think Hill is worth that kind of money or 3 years. That is just my opinion, if you do not agree, oh well….
They gave up Moncada and Kopech. Moncada is the #1 prospect on all of baseball and Kopech was #67. Two more are going to Chi-town as well.
Since the Dodgers did not have a prospect rated as high as Moncada, I suspect it would have taken Bellinger, De Leon, Alvarez and another few. Of course, we could have signed Moncada…
That is a high price and I agree it would have been too much for the Dodgers to pay, but you never know until you try.
I read over the summer when Sale’s name was being thrown around in a possible trade with the Dodgers that Urias, Bellinger, Verdugo and someone else I don’t remember still probably woudn’t have gotten it done. I think any scenario that doesn’t include Urias is not realistic, and considering the Dodgers have little interest in moving a future rotation fixture for a present one…as well as their first baseman of the future, it’s understandable why the Dodgers weren’t mentioned in any rumors with Sale.
Reasoning ability aside, I presume?
Sale to the Red Sox Moncada, Kopech and 2 other pospects
Watching MLB and the hot stove show. Dodgers talking to White Sox about Todd Frazier. Would mean the end of JT in LA>
The Sox had the best offense in MLB last year and needed a pitcher to get over the hump. They gave up top prospects to try to win a title. Is that a bad thing?
If the Sox win the Series in ’17 and Sale is a big part of that, will Red Sox Nation complain that they traded Moncada?
No…they will be dancing in the streets of Boston…..that’s a pretty decent top 3 in the rotation over there now….Porcello, Price and Sale.
Dodgerrick-
From reading through the comments under the announced trade most Red Sox fans are very pleased with the trade. No one from their major league roster was removed and they’ve added Sale (1 of the top 5 pitchers in the game today). In contrast, many of the White Sox fans are not happy with the trade.
I personally thinks it’s a great trade for the Sox. The Red ones.
Chili
I agree that was a very good deal for the Red Sox.
They really didn’t have an ace pitcher, before this trade.
Maybe Price will turn it around next year, but he has been worse then Kershaw, in the post season, and he didn’t pitch well last year in the regular season.
Price’s velocity has went down every year he has pitched.
And Porcello pitched like a number one last year, but really, he is more a number two pitcher.
And about Moncada, he might not be all that, like everyone believes.
You just never know with prospects.
He didn’t play that well, when he was brought up last year.
Is anyone saying it’s a bad thing for either team?
ChiSox kick start their reboot. BoSox get a cost-controlled starter.
Bluto
I think it was a better trade for the Red Sox.
And Sale being cost controlled, made it an even better deal.
They will probably be asking themselves….”Who”?
Difference in team leadership……Dombrowski is a big game hunter……….FAZ is an angry rabbit looking for lettuce………Dombrowski is looking for the big win, FAZ is looking for low risk targets. 3 years of Sale for 38 million dollars and some prospects. Granted, Moncada is a great prospect….and he will probably be a good player. But you never know until they do it in the bigs. For all their talent, our minor league stars have proved nothing yet. They are still prospects. I would have loved to see Kershaw and Sale 1-2 in our rotation…..
Um. Corey Seager?
Julio Urias?
Pederson?
All have done considerably more than “nothing”.
Bluto
Who drafted and signed all of those prospects you listed?
Logan White?
Urias was signed by Avila.
Sure wasn’t FAZ…..
But Faz kept ’em.
And both of those guys worked for Colletti!
The same guy who drafted Chris Reed, Chris Anderson, Zach Lee, and Preston Mattingly.
I like Logan White and for the most think he did a good job considering McCourt was the owner, but he had plenty of misses.
I said prospects, not guys on the big league roster. Read first then open your mouth, That means guys like Bellinger, Deleon, Calhoun Verdugo…..the Red sox made that trade and did not lose anyone of their starting 8. When Bellinger comes up hits 20 dingers his first year like Corey and Joc did then you can say he did something…as of right now he is nothing more than a prospect…….
But by that logic a minor league prospect CAN NEVER prove anything, because once they are on the roster they aren’t prospects, and until they get into the majors they haven’t proven anything.
You are going to argue no matter what I say. So to me what you say has no meaning. Like I said, my opinion. You do not have to agree. They are prospects until they prove something in the majors…and I have seen a lot of highly touted so called can’t miss prospects fall right on their ass. There is no way of knowing how well they will do until they do it. By that logic, Give me the guy who has done it and kept doing it. I would rather have the can do of Sale, than the I might be good someday of all those guys. I want someone who can get the job done now. The plan is to build and win down the road while staying competitive. Problem with that is that we have to wait…and wait and wait. Personally I am damn tired of waiting. I am not getting any younger and I would like to see at least one more championship team. If it is not to be, oh well……..I just think their logic is flawed. Agree or not, I simply do not care…
This is not Bugs Bunny…
MJ face it…those guys think Colletti is the anti Christ….he engineered the TRADE and stuck the Dodgers with those huge contracts plus signing Kemp and Ethier. Although the trade would never have been possible if new ownership had not signed off on it, so the onus on that is on them. As far as Ethier and Kemp, well, Kemp at the time was young and becoming a super star. The injury screwed that up. Ethier was simply a knee jerk reaction because they were afraid he would walk and sign with Arizona. Yeah FAZ kept those kids. But I am pretty sure ownership had a lot to do with that. They knew the farm system was not what it should be. Giving FAZ all the credit is not basing it on truth. Kasten is a smart guy. He helped build the Braves when Freidman and Zaidi were babes in the woods. So to say this combined FO made the decision to keep the cream of the crop is horse manure….that came from on high…….
Michael
Actually the front office wanted Colleti to sign Ethier.
That’s why I said it was a knee jerk deal. They were totally afraid Ethier would go to the D Backs.
I don’t think anyone blames Colletti for the big trade.
I’m not even sure ANYONE should be blamed. The trade made sense at the time, and in hindsight.
That trade was all Kasten. Even Colletti admits that.
So Urias, Puig, Calhoun and Verdugo would not have gotten it done?
Who on this board knows. I know Puig’s value is minimal. So I’d probably say no, not even close.
Chili, it would be close but I don’t think Dodgers are willing to move Urias and the White Sox had no interest in Puig last year.
I believe aDodgers deal would have started with Urias. He is the closest In ranking to Moancada since Moancada is #1. Urias ,Bellinger and prospects. I’m sure they talked and LA said no thank you.
Hawkeye
I think the Red Sox lost some faith in Moncado, after Moncado didn’t do that well, when a came up last year.
Moncada had 19 at bats. I’d give him another 19 before passing judgment.
I’d say that 230 innings of 1.2 WHIP and 17 wins would qualify Price as a solid starter. Granted his ERA+ of 114 was down from the previous 3 years of 164, 158 and 179, but adding Sale behind or in front of those numbers and Cy Porcello makes it highly unlikely the Red Sox have very many losing streams.
Justin Turner is coming back to LA. Frazier? Give me break. The Dodgers won’t FAZ this up.
Badger
I didn’t say that Price isn’t a solid pitcher.
I said he isn’t pitching like an ace pitcher, like he has been paid.
And who wants a pitcher at that price, who’s velocity is going on down every year, and hasn’t pitched well in the post season.
Is he overpaid? Well, yeah, I suppose so. He had a 3 WAR year for $30mm. But, 35 starts, 230 innings of sub 4 ERA in the AL is pretty darn not too bad. He’s a winner and has been a winner (.651 winning %) his entire career.
Who wants a pitcher like him? I do. His contract looks like it could be an anchor, but those exist all over both leagues. Many teams don’t seem to care. 35 starts and 230 innings means you won’t have as many Norris and Tepesch starts, nor as many 4 inning relief games. That could sure help a team like the Dodgers.
I know 17 at bats are not enough at bats, to evaluate a player, but Puig had great numbers in minors too, and he has still not figured it out yet.
Badger
I am not saying Price or those pitchers.
Badger
I would have rather had Greinke, then Price, even though Greinke is older.
It is stressful enough, having to watch Kershaw pitch in the post season, let alone, another pitcher, like Price.
Too small of a sample size. They ve seen him for a couple years. They know what they have or don’t have. They price for Sale was expensive and they were willing to pay it. I think the Nationals should have got it done.
I don’t see the front office trading for Fraizer.
They could have gotten him last year very easy, if they wanted to.
I still think we sign Turner.
I think Solarte would be fine for second base.
He is under team control for the next two or three years, so he is cheap.
But he doesn’t hit lefties all that, but he is respectable against lefties.
But it would be better to get a second baseman, that is a leftie killer, that also hits righties well too.
So, you want a second baseman who is an every day player. Me too. I want an every day player at every position.
Badger
I do too!
I think most teams, still go with there basic line up every game.
Teams give there players rest, and sometimes they might sit one of there young players against a tough pitcher, but not for every tough pitcher, or leftie, that they play.
It’s time for the Dodgers to tell JT to shit or get off the pot. He’s had ample time to find out his value. The Dodgers gave him the opportunity to do so and come back for a contract. The market is moving now and its time to get something done so they can move forward with their roster before they get left behind.
Hawkeye
I think the front office is waiting it out with Turner, to get a better deal.
Because Turner wants to come back, and the front office wants Turner back.
Turner doesn’t have much interest is what I read.
And it is that pick that is attached to Turner, that is making most of the lack of interest with Turner.
And like I have said, Turner has a few things working against him, so I think we will get Turner at a fair price.
It is going to be interesting to see what happens at second.
Well I think he’s had enough time to shop himself. This is JT’s first and probably last big contract so the Dodgers have shown him the respect to maximize his value. At the same time, the Dodgers can’t sit around too long and assume they will get a deal done. It only takes one franchise to change its course and swoop in a steal him. He’s had about 60 days for his agent to assess his value. Time to get it done.
Hawkeye
What you just said, is what Colleti said the other day.
He didn’t say he was talking about Turner, but the other guy on this program, let it be known, that Colletti was talking about Turner.
I,too, would’ve liked to have Sale but his delivery seems to cry injury.
So doe’s Wood’s….Maeda has problems. Sale has been healthy so far and he is young yet. Kershaw is not guaranteed to be totally healthy either since back troubles are hard to predict. Any pitcher can blow out at anytime. Koufax was toast at 32. Drysdale had to quit because he had a torn rotator. Today that injury could have been fixed with surgery. No one can predict an injury. That’s why people who decry Kemp’s contract are howling at the moon because when he signed that deal, and for a good portion of the following year until he crashed into the wall at Coor’s…..He was one of the most dangerous hitters in all of major league baseball
Yes both Sale and Wood have weird deliveries but we’re talking an ace not Wood who to my knowledge isn’t in our staring 5 in 2017. In fact, aren’t they listing him as a reliever?
I wonder what he would bring in a trade? Either by himself or with others.
He was listed as a starter as far as pitchers the Dodgers have available to trade. They used him in relief because they did not want to just throw him back into the rotation. I have seen that teams see value in him, but not sure what he would bring in return.
MJ
Sorry I didn’t have time to reply to you yesterday when you mentioned about me retiring to, or getting a holiday home in the US.
That was amazing that you mentioned it, as I was only looking on Zillow yesterday at properties in the Newport/Huntingdon/Laguna areas.
I know you were lucky enough to grow up in the Huntingdon area.
The first night I ever spent in America was in Newport Beach, and I absolutely loved it, it was 1988.
I went to see the Dodgers on a lovely summers evening and fell
In love with Baseball, The Dodgers & Chavez Ravine.
I went back the next night. I was hooked.
Two years later I was living in Venice Beach having arrived from a year in Australia. The holiday in 88 had changed my perspective on things.
I had a great year of course, and got a gig delivering cars all over the country. Passed through 40 states in the year, and took in games nearly every night. Most of those stadiums have long disappeared.
One day I managed to see the Dodgers play a double header in Fulton County Stadium in a crowd of about 7,000. We lost both & I remember Dave Justice hitting a HR.
Ramon Martinez was my hero.
I followed the Dodgers back home in the UK through buying USA Today every day, and just looking at the Box Scores.
I have been back many times to the US & LA in particular, and like to think of it as my second home.
Things are easier now following the team, starting with the internet & now with every game available on MLB.com
So, it’s funny that you mentioned me living in LA in the future MJ as it’s a definite option.
I’m not sure how many days a year a Foreign National can reside in the US, but think it might be 90 in one year, so it would probably have to be a holiday home but certainly not out of the question.
Thanks for your thoughts anyway.
Hi Watford. I can give you a perspective on each of those three, as well as additional places in OC. Each of those three beach communites have their own unique micro-cultures…both positive and negative.
Having grown up in OC and currently living here, my favorite for it’s history and sense of community is still Tustin. But…if I had my druthers and wanted to live on the beach, my preference is San Diego North county – Encinitas, Solana Beach, Leucadia.
There are foreign nationals who have lived here for years. We have a name for them but I won’t mention it here, no use hurting anyone’s feelings. Actually there are ways for you to legally live here year around. You could get some kind of a little job (your own business maybe) to qualify for a Work Visa or attend a class every now and then and get a Student’s Visa. Probably other ways as well.
Cheers to you Watford and here’s hoping you do purchase a home in our desert by the sea.
Watford
I didn’t grow up in Huntington Beach, but at the time, I could get to Huntington or Newport, in about 30 or 35 minutes.
My father use to take me to Huntington when I was small, but in my teens we went to Newport Beach.
I grew up in a small town called Corona.
And when I would go out to a club in Orange County when I was in my twentys, if I said I was from Corona, they always thought I was from Corona Del Mar.
But I bet you had some fun times back then, even when you were working!
I thought about you, because my brother is thinking about getting a home in California to stay at, in the winter.
I imagine you had some great times, and have a lot of great stories you could tell, from those days.
Let’s understand why the Red Sox Genius GM (anointed by some of you) was able to trade for Chris Sale. It all stared with THE TRADE when the Red Sox swindled the Dodgers into taking A-Gon and Crawfish, both of whom are getting paid a combined a $43 million and then Ned signed Kemp and Ethier to long term deals, while the Red Sox rebuilt by getting younger.
Bogarts, Bradley and Betts, Benintendi, Young and Leon are all All-Star caliber players… some superstars and yet the Dodgers are paying the 4 guys aforementioned nearly $80 million a year while those six guys make less than $4 million. So, don’t be dumb and try and compare the two. The Red Sox can do that because they grew their own and then bought to fill in. You can’t buy it in the beginning. When are you going to finally figure that out?
So Kasten’s an idiot. No argument here.
100% agree!
Yeah…but Rubby DLR isn’t exactly the highlight of the Sox player development system. The Sox acquired minor league assets by hording them and drafting and signing wisely. The Trade worked for them in allowing the necessary defoliation of payroll and old, expensive players, it doesn’t directly impact what happened today.
So, for those critical of the Hill signing. I presume you would have preferred Sale. Would you have been comfortable with what the Dodgers would have had to give up to get him? What do you think that would have been? Hill presents a risk – because of age and history, but list the advantages. What comes to mind is that you’re getting possible ace level upside while NOT taking on Crawford type contracts and NOT giving up the invaluable farm pieces. Mark’s right here in that, if the team is going to be successful in the long run, it has to develop from within.
Sure, be critical, but exercise critical thinking in the process. The Dodgers would have given up an awful lot of Sale.
Dodger patch
Thanks for making that more clear then Mark did.
Dodger patch
I think everyone is upset, because of the other three pitchers.
Like I said before, at least Hill has an upside to bet on.
Enough with the trade…….swindled? Horse manure, they gave up guys that had little or no value to them at the time. And they got exactly what they wanted. A Latino superstar to trot out there everyday and help alleviate the mess that McCourt created. They got mileage out of a career sub, Punto, and Beckett gave them some wins before retiring. The last two years of CC’s contract have been a waste, but when healthy the guy did ok. He was the Dodgers best hitter for a couple of months a few years ago and almost carried them on his back when the rest of the squad was stumbling. But you are all knowing.,……….in your mind……and there you go with the possible ace…I would rather trade the young talent to get a young talent who is already an ACE………….But it is not my decision to make….and not my team……..
FAZ probably offered Turner the same as Hill got, 3/$48MM, take it or leave it.
MJ mentioned that Moncada has lost some of his luster and I agree. I really wanted him and didn’t like that the Dodgers didn’t do more to sign him. But Boston paid $62M including penalties for him and might not have made their team in 2017, at least not before July.
He is a switch hitter but much weaker from the right side. I am over him. Boston did well in getting Sale.
I remember reading that the Dodgers tried to get Moncada to put off signing for a few months so the Dodgers would have a window to sign him.
He ended up going to Boston.
Bum
Signing those Cubans that you have to pay up front is scary, because you really don’t know what you are really getting.
Remember Hector Olivera?
Why don’t we just sign that pitcher who throws with both arms(forgot his last name, starts with a V). That way he pitch twice and we save a spot on the 25 man roster.
I think that guy is with the A’s so Zaidi probably knows something about him.
I will no longer be going to any Dodger games at Dodger Stadium. The rise in prices and parking has made it too expensive for someone like me who is living on SSA. I will go see them when they play the Rockies in Denver. But when I do go out to LA to visit, I will instead go watch the Quakes play in Rancho Cucamonga rather than go to the Stadium. I can get 3 box seats there for what it cost for one reserved seat at Dodger Stadium. Still a fan..but not for that kind of money.
I will go to very few games at Dodger stadium because…
1. Tickets are expensive;
2. The punks won’t let me sit in the pressbox anymore;
3. I am generally only there once during baseball season; and
4. I might bump it Stan Kasten.
Before the State Championship Game.
Now. He came home yesterday with all his hair gone – Donated to Locks of Love!
Here’s the best way to watch a game – Camelback Ranch in the pressbox:
Those were the days! Right Roger?
Looks like a crap view to me.
I think you just like it because somehow it appeals to your inflated ego.
I can get seats in Row 7 behind either dugout at Chase for $37.50. I won’t be going to Chavez anytime soon, or likely ever again. I may not purchase mlbtv again either.
Thank you for your opinion of my ego.
May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face;
the rains fall soft upon your fields and until we meet again,
may God hold you in the palm of His hand.
You’re welcome.
And thank you.
This after what you blasted me with two days ago.
And you tell us you are not on any meds? I think you’re classic bi-polar.
Thank you for your diagnosis.
You are never in the wrong.
I still hear that Justin Turner is seeking a $100 million deal.
That won’t happen with the Dodgers.
Nor should it!
I’d like to have him back at 4 years/$80 million. Backload it to make it easier to do.
Mark
He is worth much more then Hill is, and you have only stayed neutral on Hill.
You use to stick up for Turner, why are you acting like he isn’t worth that much?
He is a middle of the order hitter, that plays really good defense, and he is a team player.
Yankees offered contracts to both Jansen and Chapman. No comment on how much or how long…..question. Is this going to be another on of those winter meetings where the FO just sits on their hands and then makes knee jerk moves to try and keep up with Jones’s? Or do they wait until the last day of the meetings, which for the most part is tomorrow and make a Kemp like and Gordon like move? The suspense is killing me. I would rather they do it sooner than later…….100 mil to JT???? Not from this FO………
I would be VERY surprised if Turner got over $80 million. He played 151 games to do what he did in his contract year. He’s never come close to that many games in the past, what are the chances that at age 33-36 he will do it again? I think he won’t go over 135 games next year and will likely play in fewer after that. 4 and $76mm is generous. He’s important for this team now, but in ’18 and beyond I’m hoping we are younger and more athletic all over the field.
I agree..no one knows how long JT can keep up this pace. I like the guy, and he is a hardnosed player. But wrong side of 30 for a huge deal……and I just read this little blurb from a Ken Rosenthal tweet and I found it interesting…….according to him, the Dodgers feel they can get 120 quality innings a year from Hill and that their depth will cover the rest. Seems to me they are putting a lot of faith in a BP that no one knows what it will be this year or the year after and a lot of faith that Hill stays healthy long enough to pitch that much at 37, 38 and 39………
120 innings is worth $16 million?
Well, 70 late innings is worth that, so, I guess 120 early innings would be too.
I don’t recognize this game anymore.
They seem to think so. But if Jansen goes elsewhere, and Blanton does the same, 2 huge pieces of that depth that actually contributed are gone. I do not see that kind of monetary value on only 120 innings. Unless he wins every game he pitches….
Fangraphs thinks he will start 24. The Dodgers don’t if they expect 120 innings. That’s maybe 20 starts Again, bulk up the bullpen and find somebody else to take the ball for his other 12 starts.
Badger and Michael,
I have not seen anything that says that Turner is asking 100 million.
Mark is the only one I have seen, that has said that.
Turner deserves at least 80, if Hill is getting almost fifty.
Turner is a middle of the order hitter, that plays really good defense at third.
And if we get him for eighty, that isn’t that bad.
Non of these GMs, think they will get all of these years, out of the players they sign
Turner didn’t put a lot of wear and tear on his body, because he wasn’t a full time player, most of those years.
I think Turner is a better bet then Hill, and the Dodgers have gotten a ton of production out of Turner, and for not to much.
And actually we might get an even better deal for Turner, then some think.
That was said by you the past two years.
Badger
The doesn’t really come down, until after 2018.
So I am thinking it will be 2019 when everything should come together.
That will be Turner’s third year, and he is flexible.
I hope I’m wrong, but 87 wins 2017.
Guessing now?
Before most of the offseason is done?
OK. That sounds like a winning combination.
Wondering
You are just saying that to get a reaction darn you!
Too soon to predict anything – we don’t know who will be on the roster when the season starts and who will be on the rosters of our competitors.
Turner won’t sell himself “cheaply” nor should he. This is his one chance to hit it big. He prefers to go to the Dodgers but may prefer to go to whomever will pay him most.
I have read that the Yanks and Marlins have offered in the range of 5/$80MM to Chapman/Jansen.
Will the Dodgers spend the $$? I doubt it. Prepare to see Jansen and Turner in other unis next year.
Yes, too soon to know much about the Dodgers of ’17, but Boston just joined Chicago as WS favorites. So, if nothing else of note happens, 87 wins sounds optimistic.
Andrew Friedman on Dodgers.com, talking about the possibility of re-signing Turner or Jansen:
“I think the free-agent market almost always plays out to the point of doing more than you rationally want to do. If you’re always rational about free agents, you will finish third on every free agent. So, there’s some element that is market-based that makes it hard to answer. In a rational mind, yes, it can work. Doesn’t mean it can play out in a rational way.”
In other words, the free market makes it irrational to re-sign your own players. Sounds like the A’s/Rays way of doing things.
No….it just means that GMs are often overcome with what Greenspan once termed, “irrational exuberance” when it comes to overpaying for free agents. Because the pool for quality free agents is always going to be small *(minimal alternatives), GMs feel they need to overpay so the other guy doesn’t get him. When Friedman described coming in third, that’s probably about where the Dodgers wound up in the bidding for Greinke. The Dodgers were rational and made a hard decision not to match the Dback’s offer, the Dbacks, it can be argued, acted irrationally.
You can almost make a case that this is confession by Friedman that he has a hard time understanding or adapting to the unique complexities of baseball compared to the cold rationality of valuing equities – though predicting the market has to factor its own irrational component.
Dodger patch
I don’t know about the Greinke deal.
But I don’t think you would think that Kazmir, would perform well enough, to even want to use his opt out, after getting that multi year contract.
If Kazmir had pitched to his career norm and came away healthy no doubt he would have opted out into this weak market for pitchers.
Hawkeye
Kazmir did pitch well for the A’s in the first half of the season, in 2015, but the end of that season, he didn’t pitch well at all, for the Astros.
He now hasn’t pitched that well, for an entire season.
And apparently his chronic condition, is why he doesn’t have any control.
That is something that didn’t suddenly come on last year.
Remember even in spring training, he had excuse for why he wasn’t pitching well.
The front office got him, because they messed up the negoitions, with that Japanese pitcher.
MJ, I agree with you but A healthy Kazmir would have opted out.
While a thing (or a player) has an intrinsic value, to buy or sell it (or him) the market dictates what the purchase price will be. If it is more than you think it is worth, you probably won’t buy it.
What this means in this context is that you won’t sign any free agent players but role players, the old or infirm. The players who teams actually want to sign (Chapman, Jansen, et al) you won’t want to pay. The market sets the price – you don’t.
In this sense, the Dodgers do become the Rays/A’s. Those franchises aren’t willing to pay their players market value either ,so they trade them for cheaper players (prospects), whom they hold for a while and trade again when the market value is again higher than they want to pay.
If they would get away from their logic that quantity trumps quality (this isn’t the A’s/Rays) and IF they would quit wasting money on Cuban players of which most have turned out to be a bust (this isn’t the A’s/Rays) then they would have enough money to pay their free agents that they want to keep.
Watching Chili and Rick spin their delusions is half the reason I like this board.
Glad it’s entertaining there Bluto. It’s actually entertaining to me as they never surprise me with their acquisitions.
Here’s all I’m going to say…..94 win team prior to them arriving. 92 wins 1st year. 91 wins 2nd year. We’ll see what transpires the rest of this off season and next season.
Yes, apparently they have never heard the phrase, “there is strength in numbers”.
So true in baseball, see 2016 AZ situation. I said it before, when Pollock went down at the beginning of the season, the cupboard was so bare, they had to consider “Lucille” in center.
Dodger rick
That is what happen with there negotiations with that Japanese pitcher.
They tried to use his film against him, when he was holding the cards.
Dodger rick
Does any of these people really say anything at all?
Dodger
They had no problem over paying Kazmir, McCarthy, amd Olivera.
And didn’t they pay all of these players the same amount 48 million?
Years ago when I was in college. My friend and I were walking home from the bars at 2 A.M. I didn’t like a rumor that was out there about Kal Daniels being traded to Houston. I told my friend who was in a Strat-o-Matic baseball league from me that when I got home that I was going to give Fred Claire a call. Since ESPN had constantly televised where the meetings were at I gave it a go when I got home never really thinking that I would get through to him. To my surprise and Fred’s surprise he was on the phone with a very buzzed Dodgers fan from Iowa at 3 A.M. . Maybe FAZ needs a call from me so this JT signing can get done and you will feel better. BTW, the Dodgers should have sold high on Kal that year. I was wrong. Good times though.
Great story Hawkeye.
I tend to lean on the side of selling high on Kal philosophy. That philosophy also pertains to Greinke$$, I think the Dodgers were smart to not position themselves higher than third best offer for Greinke.
I would love to have Turner for 4 years and overpay him for his first two years and underpay him for his last two years but either give him an opt out or provide incentives that would bring up his earnings for the last two years.
Incentives can be easy to earn or hard to earn. 500 at bats would be one an easy one that basically says if you are healthy enough to get 500 plate appearances and don’t tank we will pay the full incentive.
Bum
You back load a contract, if your giving an opt out, so you pay less if you don’t resign the player.
Hawkeye
I bet you were so suprised when he answered.
Yeah, we were joking about it and my friend dared me. I just called the front desk and asked for his room. No screening of the call whatsoever.
I read that article as well Rick and I interpreted it in Turner’s case, that Freidman might pay the additional money over and beyond the rational amount. But, FAZ are also looking at trade alternatives and if they like that trade package better they will only offer Turner the rational amount.
Ok. So everything happens on FAZ’s time frame? That is where he is clueless. Things are happening all around him and he/they have put together this plan based on what they think players values are until the first domino falls then their plan collapses……just like last year. It was their plan to sign Grienke. (And whoever said they came in 3rd. Because one person says it on this blog without any proof, then it must be true? The facts are the Dodgers thought they had a deal for 5 years with Grienke and then at the 11:00 hour the D-Backs came in with a 6 year deal and either the Dodgers said no, we’re not matching it possibly thinking it was a ploy to get another year or Grienke just went ahead and accepted the D-Backs offer knowing that the Dodgers would not match.)
So now here we are with JT. First of all if they have a viable trade alternative and go through with it, then why even make JT a rational offer? That would seem to be dumb to trade prospects to fill the position and then turn around and sign him.
While FAZ has his time frame for when he makes trades and signs players, Theo has swept in and grabbed Wade Davis from the Royals….oops, another viable trade opportunity to solve the closer role gone. THAT’S WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT.
FAZ still jumping up trying to look through the window to see all of the winning FO’s sitting at the Championship table.
Chili: “FAZ still jumping up trying to look through the window to see all of the winning GM’s sitting at the Championship table.”
Yet, somehow, someway, FAZ was among the last three GM’s standing in 2016. Good rant, not accurate, but good rant.
Been fishing, last few days, trip from hell. Cold torrential rain storm on Oregon Coast, hypothermia must have been close, river got muddy and therefore no salmon biting. Wanted to show Michael, that he shouldn’t be satisfied with a “big fish from a small pond”, but, will now have to wait awhile. Sadly, reminded a fish in hand is worth two in the water.
Come back here to see FAZ signed the top free-agent starter this year for less than $50M and SURPRISE SURPRISE nothing but complaining. Great signing!! Fits right in with the organizational starting pitching assets. Now let’s “beef up the bullpen”, but of course, that is already another potential area of organizational “depth”. Hill’s 120 quality innings will be a big help and contrary to someone’s post, yes, FAZ can influence when those innings come. With the multiple organizational starters Hill can be easily put on the shelf at the MLB Player Factory in Glendale until the playoffs, right when we want them. We now have a “2” until the farm provides more. Bridge construction complete and under budget. Good job FAZ.
Chili: “So now here we are with JT. First of all if they have a viable trade alternative and go through with it, then why even make JT a rational offer? That would seem to be dumb to trade prospects to fill the position and then turn around and sign him.”
Seems pretty smart to me to check out every possibility. What makes you think they would do the “dumb” thing and get a “viable trade alternative” and then sign Turner? Unless of course, the “viable trade alternative” is versatile and can also play second. Most of you guys/gals just haven’t figured out that FAZ checks out everything, but is a buyer only at the “right” cost (See Greinke), which is totally necessary post NED.
Friedman just honestly expressed what we already know. If you want something badly enough at auction, you may have to overpay. Most of these guys get overpaid now for what they did before. I think that is especially true with players over 30. The prime years for productivity are now clearly under 30. That said, I think Turner has a couple good years left in him. Jansen can probably do what he does for 5 more years.
Badger
Really Kenley, is probably the best of these three closers, to count on.
He has his age, and he throws the right pitch, that the best closer in baseball threw, for a long time.
Chapman won’t be throwing that hard for the next five years probably, and he isn’t built as strong as Kenley.
And it seems that Kenley got better, the more he pitched last year, in the post season.
If I was the manager, I would make sure I got Kenley regular work, as much as I could, with still keeping his arm in mind.
And because Kenley started out as a catcher, he has less miles on his arm, then the other two closers in this market.
I don’t think this front office wanted to sign Melancon, because they love Power pitchers, that get a lot of swing and misses.
I don’t think Chapman is as strong mentally, as the other two closers either.
Looks like Davis goes to Cubs for Solair. That is a good trade for both teams.
Is Cain better than Puig? I don’t think so. Cain plays CF and RF and is gold glove defense. If he were to play LF and the outfield were Cain, Pederson, and Puig that would make more sense to improve offense against lefty pitchers.
A Cain, Pederson, Puig outfield should eliminate outfield platoons. I also like Thompson in LF but that might be a platoon with Toles or Ethier.
Cain is a gold glove like centerfielder, he wouldn’t be playing the corner outfield position.
He can get to more balls, then most out fielders.
He hit 375 against lefties last year, but he has no power.
I don’t think he hit more then 7 or 8 HRs last year.
He also had a wrist injury last year, so I wouldn’t want him on the Dodgers.
Players have to many problems hitting, when it is a wrist injury, and Cain had a hammy problem last year too.
And Davis had forearm tightness and some other type of problem last year too.
MJ, Cain plays both RF and CF. Measure twice, cut once.
Its too bad that Toles and Puig have less trade value than what they are worth. Both are awesome talents with negative mental peripherals but those negatives are in their youthful past, maybe.
Combine the above with the unknown health of McCarthy, Kazmir, and Ryu and the Dodgers can’t get equal value back for those 5 players if those 5 play up to their potentials.
Then add Calhoun and Johnson and their lack of defensive positions nailed down due to them being more bat and less glove and their trade value is diminished.
Pitching is the opposite problem from those 7 players in that Urias, De Leon, Buehler, Alvarez, Stripling, Stewart, and others are all players that if traded could come back to be a Pedro Martinez trade.
Verdugo and Diaz careers are the most predictable IMO.
LF Cain for Toles and McCarthy
RF Puig
SS Seager
3B Turner
CF Pederson
2B Solarte for Hernandez and Gonzales and $$
1B Bellinger/SVS
C Austin Hedges for Grandal and De Jong and Oaks
Kershaw, Hill, Maeda, Urias, Stewart/De Leon
Stripling as a Miller type 2 inning relief pitcher
Closer: Britton for Rhame, Calhoun, Verdugo, Oaks
Here’s the way FAZ negotiates/signs his valued free agents.
FAZ: JT, KEN….you both are very talented players and we want each of you back with the Dodgers next year and beyond.
JT,KEN……Great. We both want to return to the Dodgers and win a title for the city of LA.
FAZ: As I do as well.. Rather than us making a formal offer to either of you let’s do things this way. I want both of you to seek out your true worth in the market but I want to have a chance to match or exceed that offer. Does that sound like a reasonable request? That will be a way of keeping both of you here in LA.
JT, KEN: (after a pause) Well. (Another long pause) Yes, if that’s the way you would prefer it to be handled than yes; we’ll have our agents get back with you with our best offers so that you have a final opportunity to match.
FAZ: Excellent. We’ll get you guys signed and in Blue next year.
Here’s the way a WINNING FO handles their valued free agents.
Winning FO: JT, KEN…..you both are very talented players and we want both of you next year and beyond. In fact both of you are key components in bringing a baseball title back to the city of LA.
JT, KEN…..Great. We both want to return to the Dodgers and win a title for the city of LA.
Winning FO: Then we are on the same page. I realize that this is an important part of each of your lives and both have an opportunity to set you and your families up for years to come. Both have been great citizens and exemplify the Dodger way.
(Side Meeting with JT)……Not knowing what the market might bear I’m going to make an offer of $70M/4 years. This will keep you in Dodger Blue for many years to come. I would hope that this would be a fair offer and if nothing else it is a starting point. Until you accept this deal I have no choice but to pursue other options, I’m sure you understand. Hopefully with this offer, I have at least ascertained the right to meet or exceed any offer that might come your way.
JT: I appreciate the offer and will get with my agent. I want to stay in LA and hopefully this will make that happen. Thank you.
(Side Meeting with Kenley Jansen)….. Not knowing what the market might bear I’m going to make an offer of $75M/4 years. This will keep you in Dodger Blue for many years and will allow you to distinguish yourself as the premier Dodger closer in history. I would hope that this would be a fair offer and if nothing else it is a starting point. Until you accept this deal I have no choice but to pursue other options, I’m sure you understand. Hopefully with this offer, I have at least ascertained the right to meet or exceed any offer that might come your way.
Kenley……Thank you. As you know this could be my last chance to sign a long term deal. I definitely appreciate your offer and it does reflect the importance of the closer role to Management. I’ll get with my agent and will definitely give you final chance to meet or exceed any offers that might arise. I’m hoping to make a decision soon so this will not linger long. Thank you again.
Did you wake up on the “wrong side of the bed”?
Don’t see anything wrong with first approach. Your second approach probably insulted Jansen with smaller offer than “Chapman money”. Really not that much difference in the two approaches. Most important thing is to let both players sincerely know they are valued and wanted. That the Dodgers want the best for them and their families and will pay a “reasonable salary”. If someone else is smoking crack and getting crazy, like AZ with Greinke, hasta la vista, and don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!!
It’s simply a proactive approach rather than a reactive one which is the way FAZ has operated since day 1 IMO.
Notice how Theo didn’t wait to see what the market was going to bear. Rather than get in the middle of the bidding war for Chapman and Jansen he chose to trade for Wade Davis. He gave ‘young’ potential for ‘proven’ quality. That is a proactive move.
Um, Theo did wait to see where the market was, and then decided to go with Davis while giving up a major prospect.
Thus, they were both reactive.
So he had the same information that FAZ had and FAZ did what?
Reacted?
I think this is very accurate, you capture Kenley Jansen’s voice and speaking style perfectly.
However, the WINNING GM doesn’t seem to understand or use the ascertain correctly. I don’t think.
Eerie.
TLDR
When people have a certain belief system that runs up against limited information, it is often the human tendency to fill in the blanks with their own projected reality. None of us are privy to the phone calls made, the meetings with agents, the executive strategy sessions. I’m confident that there is dialog, the negotiations are ongoing, and that there are concurrent contingency strategies in place that bear very very little resemblance to your fantasy scenario.
Hawkeye
Has heard a phone conversation.
Merry Christmas, Loyal Dodger Fans…
signed: FAZ
We all live in our own fantasy world. Look around man, reality sucks. Fantasyland is a fun place to hang out.
I can see the first scenario being played out, but here’s my issue with it. Agents are lawyers. Those guys are going to come back with bullsh*t all over their presentations. Lawyers, by their own admission tell stories. Those stories don’t have to reflect the truth, they reflect what they want you and others to believe to be the truth. What I think you have to do is be prepared to make the offer that fits your plan. I don’t know what that plan is, nobody but FAZ knows that, but the fact is we already got great value out of Turner. We got 13 WAR for less than $10 million. We got that value and didn’t win a championship. Do we now OWE him? F no. That’s not how it works in this business. We can didn’t win a championship just as well without him and save $80 million. Saving payroll is part of the plan…. right? That’s the story we are being told. We can find another third baseman somewhere. Hell, find an electric shortstop that can hit .250 and put up + dWAR stats and move Corey over. There are ways to avoid anchor contracts, you just have to maybe bite a bullet.
That said, I offer him a generous but not ridonkulous contract and wish him well if he signs elsewhere. Same with Kenley. Everybody is replaceable.
True. I’m not advocating signing either player but not sure what the contingency plans are at this point.
Yes, if getting payroll down is the goal, then why is there even a discussion by Friedman or anyone else about attempting to sign Turner. Wrong side of 30 at multiple years makes no sense whatsoever. About as much as paying $16M per for Hill and hoping to get 120 IP. By that standard David Price’s contract would be viewed by FAZ as a good deal as he pitched 230 innings and made $30M. ($130K per inning compared to Hill’s ‘forecasted’ $133K per inning)
Difference between Hill and Price is FAZ didn’t feel the need to buy as many of those “$130K per inning” innings. We have lots of potential young studs on the way.
The truth is, FAZ is playing chess while all of us are checker players!!
So how long are you giving Friedman/Zaidi to win a title? Hell, just getting to the World Series would be a novel accomplishment. How many years?
Is the plan to reduce payroll? By when are they to have payroll below the luxury tax level? How is signing Hill ($48M/3 years) and possibly signing Turner reducing payroll? Not to even mention a closer or 2nd baseman.
The 3 prospects that were traded away for NOTHING. How do you know that one, two or three of them were not studs? Please explain that move to me.
So is FAZ going to sign any other FA’s? Or are they going to trade for players….uh oh, that would take prospects, either ML (Toles/Puig/Pederson) or minor league prospects.
Please educate me as to how they reduce payroll, sign free agents, make trades and improve the ball club while keeping all of their young studs.
I have no timetable for a championship. I just want to see the organization going in the right direction and COMPETING! They accomplished that in 2016 in my opinion. I will take a two games to one lead in the National League Championship series the next couple years, knowing that the competition has to beat Kershaw and Hill to win. Comes a point, where the players (You listening Kershaw) have to take care of business. FAZ aint pitching.
I have always said, Dodgers will be out of luxury tax hell in 2018. I believe Kazmir and McCarthy can be traded without eating much if any salary. Gonzalez, depending how he plays in 2017 can also be traded, eating some portion of his 2018 contract. Combine that with Ethier and Crawford finally off the books and WaaLaa no luxury tax. That is even with Jansen, Turner and Hill on board.
I wasn’t wild about the Oakland trade, but, I did like the idea of Kershaw and Hill for games 6 and 7 in Chicago. You guys just want to complain. Prior year didn’t like deadline deal, this year, they give up some prospects and you guys don’t like it either. Hill pitched “fine” when we needed him in the playoffs.
What is FAZ going to do? I believe: Sign Turner, beef up bullpen (including a closer), Sign Hill at a “reasonable” price. Do “something” about second and get some right-handed platoon mashers. Same thing I have been saying all along. But, like everyone else here, WHO KNOWS? Difference is, I am content to watch the FAZmasters maneuver.
Can I just say I like Boxout’s posts more (by a factor of about a 1000) when he/she doesn’t include politics,
Oh sure, Bluto, think only of yourself!!
Doesn’t matter what the many posters who were kind and considerate enough to private email me and tell me that they appreciated me standing up to the political lynch mob around here think. Although viewed by many as an underdog (and most people love a underdog) I don’t see it that way!!! The truth will always win!!! I am willing to honor the “ceasefire” as long as others here do, but understand, if the truce is broken, I am at the ready to fight anytime for “TRUTH, JUSTICE AND THE AMERICAN WAY”.
FAZ’s chess playing has netted him……..drum roll please…….ZERO titles.
The checker playing Epstein, Sabean, Mozeliak, Dombrowski, Cherington & Cashman have ALL won more titles than Friedman/Zaidi have. Unless of course they are all playing chess at a genius level while FAZ is playing it at the beginner’s level.
What Badger a voice of reason??? Good job.
Doug Padilla, ESPN Staff Writer
The Dodgers’ priority is to bring back Justin Turner, but is there a point when they move on from their desired plan? Club president of baseball operations Andrew Friedman: “Sure. I think that as conversations get to the point where you will potentially lose something, you go to them. In the case where a player is Option A and Option B has gotten to the point where you need to make a decision, that’s when you go and say, ‘Look, we’re at this point.’ That’s the part of the timing element that is tricky.”
Sounds to me that one of the three last GM’s standing in 2016 is telling it like it is!!
And if you play the cheap skate route with some players they will say ‘screw you.’ And in some cases, you get screwed.
Which of the last three standing GM’s inherited a team 2 years prior, had won 94 games? And which of the three last standing GM’s winning totals per year have been trending downwards?
Who has been a President/GM now for 11 years and has never won a title but when hired was paid the most money annually ever given to a President/GM?
Only on this board, with these ‘fans’ can a team be criticized for paying 16mm on Rich Hill and then two days later have the insinuation that the same front office is playing the ‘cheap skate route.’
Only to have the latter accusation totally based on fantasy and imagination.
That’s the problem with ‘typing’ or ‘texting’ words on a screen. Words can be taken out of context. The cheap skate statement is towards how they are handling Turner and Jansen, IMO. If you want them and they fit the budget, get it done. Make an offer. If not, then don’t act like you do. Oh yeah, it drives up the value…..yeah right, and makes you look like a fool to the fans by acting like you were interested.
There were 3 questions identified in that same post. I see you conveniently ignored those.
Please educate me as to how they reduce payroll, sign free agents, make trades and improve the ball club while keeping all of their young studs.
Hi Chili,
I have no interest in answering your final question, because it represents a reality that I don’t live in. Nobody , except you, has said they want to:
“reduce payroll, sign free agents, make trades and improve the ball club while keeping all of their young studs.”
Why don’t you go back to your conversations between FAZ, Jansen, Turner and “WINNING FO” and see if the answer to your question lies in your dreams.
The other answer is Friedman, and I like him and his team quite a bit. You know what else Friedman has done? He’s brought the Tampa Bay Rays to the World Series. Not Epstein, Sabean, Mozeliak, Dombrowski, Cherington NOR Cashman have done anything close to that.
Some would give that credit to Maddon. And now 2 years removed from the Rays, he wins a WS.
Feel free to hold up that 2nd place trophy. All the others have AT LEAST 1 first place trophy.
Some might. Some would.
Especially those who make up conversations in a negative manner about Friedman.
Bluto-
“reduce payroll, sign free agents, make trades and improve the ball club while keeping all of their young studs.”
So which of these do you disagree with or are you saying that none of these will happen?
Let’s keep it simple.
Is the goal to reduce payroll?
Is the goal to sign free agents to fill holes?
Is the goal to utilize trades to fill holes?
Is the goal to improve the ball club?
Is the goal to keep all of their young ‘studs’?
Please answer on behalf of FAZ since he is the subject matter. It’s not you and it’s not me. It’s all on them.
Obviously I can’t and won’t answer on ‘behalf’ of FAZ, but I don’t think that’s what you actually meant. I’ll answer as I think they may.
Is the goal to reduce payroll?
Yes, over the medium and long term.
Is the goal to sign free agents to fill holes?
At times, when the market value is in line with internal evaluations.
Is the goal to utilize trades to fill holes?
At times.
Is the goal to improve the ball club?
Of course.
Is the goal to keep all of their young ‘studs’?
How are we defining studs? There are some that can and must be off-limits (Seager, as one example.) There are others (Cotton, as one example) who don’t need to be kept.
Here’s one for you Chili:
You didn’t like the Hil deal. Give me a way you would have brought in a comparable pitcher? Trade Urias, Alvarez and Bellinger for Sale? If not, give me some idea.
I think the idea is to make money. Wins translates to money. FAZ knows their paycheck will be dependent on wins.
I’m not crazy about what they’ve done, but I do understand they’ve been a bit hamstrung by a duality. Keep winning while lowering payroll. I said a couple years ago it would take some time. I still believe that. The timetable is likely 5 years for them. And that’s just a guess. If the team is making money and putting b.i.s. – they may have more patience than 5 years.
I’ve been on the Chris Sale bandwagon since last off season. And when he had his outburst this past summer, it only made it more obvious that he was going to be traded to someone.
‘Trade Urias, Alvarez and Bellinger for Sale?’…..your words.
Of course I would not trade those 3 for Sale and the White Sox did not even get that much from the Red Sox for Sale. My proposed trade would have been Urias, Puig, Calhoun and Verdugo. IMO, that is more than what they got from the Red Sox.
Or Alvarez in place of Urias if that is what they would have preferred.
Make that deal for Sale than no reason to sign Hill……that alone saves a couple of million dollars and gives you a true co-ace.
But this thing is so much bigger than ‘the now.’ Over a year and a half ago, I had stated that either you extend Grienke or trade him for 3 or 4 high level prospects. FAZ did not extend him then did not resign him. To everyone who vouches for them to reduce payroll…..they offered Grienke a 5 year deal at $160M. An average of $32M per. That would not have reduced payroll.
Last off season, after the 3 team trade, I had said then that the Dodgers got the worse end of the deal. Why not keep Todd Frazier. I realize he only hit .225 in a new league but he did hit 40 Homers and drove in 98 runs and is a career .257 hitter in the NL. He would have been a good right handed bat vs. lefties and could have filled in for both Turner & Gonzales. He has a reasonable cost controlled contract and now would be an excellent insurance policy to Turner.
Todd Frazier or Trayce Thompson, Montas and Micah Johnson. I’m taking Todd Frazier.
Then FAZ trades 3 of their top 13 prospects for NOTHING. Because FAZ traded them they must not be very good, right? Do you really believe that? First of all they are rated by others, not by Dodger Management. From what OTHERS had seen these 3 were 3 of their top 13 prospects.
Signing Howie Kendrick to a 2 year/$20M deal. Please tell me who they were bidding against. Signing Utley quickly to a 1 year $7M deal. Again who were they bidding against. Signing Jimmie Rollins and playing him basically the entire season while Seager was sitting in the minors. By the All-Star break everyone said to cut/bench Rollins and bring up the kid. They waited until September 3rd. I have yet to bring up the 4 year McCarthy signing or the 3 year Scott Kazmir signing. If you want to defend all of these moves, go for it. These guys are in over their heads. They really need to crawl back to Tampa and Oakland, you know those 2 perennial baseball franchises.
Chili,
From my perspective it’s easy for you, you simply make up a reality then pretend it’s a universal reality.
Moncada was the top prospect in baseball. Kopech was #17. Puig has no value, and Calhoun may not have a position. Not sure how you get your prospective offer was the same as the one that happened in reality.
Let’s see if anyone else on this board thinks Sale would only have cost: Puig, Calhoun, Verdugo and Urias. I bet we’d hear laughter if we could.
Let’s go our on a limb, and say that trade wouldn’t come close to getting it done (because it wouldn’t in my reality) I’m still waiting on a way to replace Hill’s return of 3-5 WAR for 16mm per.
In your reality the Dodgers traded three prospects for nothing. In my reality they traded them for Rich Hill, who helped them get to the LCS. How’s the weather today in your reality?
In your reality they outbid themselves for Howie KEndrick. In my reality, they gave him a qualifying offer, he had no other prospects and the Dodgers got him on a very favorable contract, which they then traded for 2 players.
In your reality you can see the future and would have forseen if Greinke would have resigned. In my reality, I cannot see the future.
In your reality you don’t even need to bring up Kazmir and McCarthy. In my reality, they are trying to find under-valued assets.
The Rocks just signed Ian Desmond, 5yrs/$70MM. To play first base, yet???? Last year he played centerfield, the year before he was a shortstop, and a pretty good hitter. Why didn’t they consider signing him for shortstop and switching Seager to third. Viola! No Turner problem.
Desmond could probably handle second/third, so no need to move Seager. Are you forgetting about the forfeiture of a draft pick for signing Desmond? Versatile, 31 yr old Desmond, probably gives us a good idea what, 32 year old Turner’s ultimate price will be. Maybe Turner hasn’t been getting the contract offers he hoped for and his agents are still trying to get his price up.
Wondering
Corey played better defense at shortstop then Desmond did, when he last played shortstop.
Desmond is thirty, and he isn’t the hitter that Turner is, or the defensive player, Turner is.
But I thought about second base, but I don’t think they want to long term contract at second, with a guy that is thirty.
Badger
Here is where I don’t agree with you.
First Turner wasn’t the reason we didn’t win it all, so you can’t lay that on one player.
And with the starting pitching that this front office gave Roberts, and Kershaw going down, we were pretty lucky we even went as far as we did.
Turner wasn’t the problem, he was part of the reason, that we did better, then we probably should have.
They are not moving Corey from shortstop, he is a franchise type of player, and he will play where he feels the most comfortable at, for a long time.
The Angels moved Trout to leftfield, and his offense went down, and soon after that, Peter B was traded to the Cardinals.
That won’t happen with Corey!
Also we don’t have anyone in this organization to fill third base, or can hit like a middle of the order hitter.
Why trade prospects, when cash will do the job?
The Dodgers won’t be really going for it, until after the 2018 season, and that would be Turner’s third year of his contract.
He is a good answer, to get us to that 2019 season.
Badger
And remember, they are still trying to win as they rebuild!
And that is the mutually exclusive dilemma. That is the central, fundamental point. It’s hard to do both. I’ve been making that point…Mark has been making that point…for a long time. Every move and non move really needs to be examined with those two objectives in mind.
The Dodgers made a transition away from the parsimony and incompetence of McCourt by spending big bucks when Guggs bought them. Ok, fine…that made the team relevant again for a while. Not’s not a sustainable model. If you want to create a lasting and persistently excellent team without an insane payroll, you build from within – develop your farm system. That means you accumulate minor league talent, you don’t squander it. That means you spend your free agent dollars wisely, you don’t overpay for a career year and you look for overlooked upside.
And you’re trying to do this while maintaining a team that has won its division four straight years amidst a competitive environment where the other owners and GMs and agents are themselves sharp, shrewd, ruthless, want to improve their teams and want to stick it to you.
You want Greinke for a quarter of a billion dollars?
“And remember, they are still trying to win as they rebuild!”
You want to give up a boatload of prospects for Hamels or Sale?
“And remember, they are still trying to win as they rebuild!”
You don’t like the Hill signing?
“And remember, they are still trying to win as they rebuild!”
i heard the dodgers are going after all the left over that no body wants ..they do this every yr..no matter who is running this team…that why there is no world series.. but the fans keep filling the seats…i dont go to game s any more because it all about money not the fans…we cant even watch it on tv for the last three yrs..
Did you hear that from the voices inside your own head?
Seriously, where did you hear that?
Bluto
It is a reoccurring dream, that he has probably had, since it hasn’t happened, since 1988.
Not much news on the baseball or Dodger fronts. So on this anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor I would like to say thank you to all who have served. You do a job, and do it well, and many make the ultimate sacrifice. ….Pic below is USS Nevada, beached at Wapiao Point after the attack……my dad was on her that morning…..she was the only battleship that got underway.
Lawyers tell stories, but the stories are based on facts. It’s the facts. Which facts to believe. The agents are picking certain statistical facts and trying to sell them. Don’t forget THE FACTS. Sometimes lawyers are able to sell bad facts, but usually the side with the best, most salable facts, wins. In the case of free agency, I’m not sure the facts make a difference. It’s ultimately the team’s analysis of its own needs and resources. In baseball, the biggest unknown fact is the team’s ability/desire to make a particular financial commitment. On Jansen: 15+mil? Too much. For +/- 10 saves difference, give the others a chance to win the job in spring training. Liberatore; Dayton, et al.
Lawyers tell stories based on facts!?
Obviously you’ve never been in a courtroom where the EXACT OPPOSITE HAPPENS!
I have. Lies are not facts. The truth just doesn’t matter when cops and prosecution teams go to work to get a conviction. They can say whatever the f they want and never be held accounable. I hope it never happens to you.
MJ I never laid blame on Turner. You missed the point.
Corey managed a + dWAR. But his range and fldg % are below league average. It’s my belief that playing shortstop is very demanding. I think he would be even an even better offensive AND defensive player at third base. I think that move will be become more obvious has he fills in, which will start soon. Again, just my opinion.
I knew you and Mark would find common ground!
Badger
We agree about most things.
I know that you were just talking about, how the front office might look at these different deals and circumstances.
It sounds like Turner isn’t getting much interest.
Because of all of the things I have been saying for a while.
Because of that, I don’t think Turner will get a five year contract, unless our front office signs him.
Because they have seemed to kind of over pay for the free agents, that they have already signed, since they have been with the team.
I know players are not paid for there past performances, but these front office’s are not signing these players, and expecting these players, to full fill every year of there contract.
That is just not being realistic.
Turner will probably be productive enough, through the first three years of his contract.
And that would give this team time to find a player, or young prospect, to fill in after Turner’s contract, will be almost over.
I just see Turner as the perfect guy for third, and it would take to many good prospects, to get a player that is as good as Turner is, on both defense and offense.
The team is still trying to win, so they are not going to blow up this team, so everyone forget that.
And we do need a closer, because right now, we still don’t have any starting pitchers, that pitch deep into games.
So they need to shorten the game, for these pitchers.
Right now, this front office better sign Turner, and concentrate on getting a closer, and a second baseman.
And hopefully they can find a second baseman, that hits lefties well.
And during this time, they better think about getting rid of Kazmir and McCarthy, if they can.
I hope they are not messing around, trying to make one of there three team deals.
Because sometimes the easiest way, is the right way.
I’m a lawyer. However, I only tell the jury and court stories based on facts, not on lies. Sometimes the opposite does happen and, yes, I will agree with you that it seems to happen more in criminal prosecutions than in civil trials. I’m a civil litigation attorney and have little experience within the criminal courts. However, my 30 years experience leads me to believe that lies are the exception and not the rule.
This can be an informative blog to read. I come here to take some respite from the stress of work and life. But I have to admit, filtering through all the “I’m right and you’re wrong” nonsense can be rather tiring. Most of you are very knowledgeable fans, but frankly, who gives a rat’s rear if you’re right or wrong. Let’s enjoy the Dodgers. I hope we have better team than last year and once April rolls around, I’ll root for them to make it to the W.S., like I do every year.
You can use facts as an attorney way to weave a tale that is false. An attorney who is an advocate starts with a premise and builds arguments that include facts around that premise. The premise could be false, and the dishonesty comes from the omission of facts that don’t support the premise or facts that are designed to mislead, not from actual lies.
I was once part of a lawsuit against my car insurance company. I rear ended some emotionally frail wallflower who sued on the grounds of her excruciating back pain. Their medical expert pointed out to the MRIs that showed bulges and protrusions and other anomalies that were indecipherable to the laypersons that were part of the jury. What he didn’t say was the degree of these anomalies were consistent with the spines of vast majority of people – people who don’t report any back pain. You don’t need to lie to mislead
I have a good friend who is a lawyer (80 years old) and used to be a high powered lawyer. He says when you got the facts, you state the facts. When you don’t have the facts, you blow smoke. I have seen him and others in action many times and that is what they do.
I think what he was saying is, when the truth works in your favor, you use the truth. When the truth works against you, you have to blow smoke. The idea is to win, and to win at any cost. The cost is often truth gets trumped by lies and deception. There are hundreds of lawyer jokes for good reasons. They’ve earned every one of them.
Q: How do you get a lawyer out of a tree?
A: Cut the rope.
Q: How many lawyers does it take to roof a house?
A: Depends on how thin you slice them
Q: What’s the difference between a catfish and a lawyer?
A: One’s a bottom-crawling scum sucker and the other’s just a
fish.
Q: Hear about the terrorist that hijacked a 747 full of lawyers?
A: He threatened to release one every hour if his demands weren’t
met.
And that explains a lot of comments here…
Some of you big Faz supporters, don’t like what Chili is saying, but Chili does have a point.
This front office doesn’t have very much experience, when it comes to signing free agents, especially top free agents.
They just couldn’t do that, at the teams they were at, before the Dodgers.
That is probably were Epstein has an advantage, because he has worked, at two big market teams.
And all front office people, make some questionable deals, that is part of being human.
Epstein has drafted pretty well, and he has also found players at other teams, that he has traded for, because he has had a better idea of these player’s value, then the teams that had these players.
And now the two teams he has been a big part of, are probably the two strongest teams in baseball, with this trade for Sale.
How much experience does it take to sign a free agent? When you trade for a player you evaluate them first just as you would a free agent.
Heyman reports the sticking point with Turner is a 5 year deal.
Could be a Grienke situation, but i’m not sure there’s a team that will give him 5 years.
Time is money. We’re willing to give him 4yrs/$80MM??? Make that 5yrs/$80MM. Sign here Mr. Turner…
Wondering
I think we will sign Turner, and it won’t be an outrageous contract either.
We have a bigger need for Turner, then any other team out there, so just sign him.
I like it. Heck, give him 6 years and $80 million. What am I saying – make it a lifetime contract for $85 million!
Bluto
I don’t think Turner will get a five year contract, because he doesn’t have enough interest.
This isn’t a Greinke deal, Turner deserves more money then Hill.
And we have the most interest in Turner, and we won’t lose one of our number one picks, if we sign him.
And like you said about Hill, we won’t have to give up a lot of our young prospects, if we sign Turner.
I believe we will get a pretty good deal with Turner.
If you don’t think so, look at what middle of the order hitters, are getting in baseball right now.
And Turner is a good two way player.
Desmond looks like he is headed to the Rockies on a 5 year deal………according to Dodgerblue, the Dodgers have an interest in Joey Bats……..Dodgers want Puig to lose weight, again……Kershaw starts his winter throwing program and says his back is no longer a problem…..CK earn a doctorate???…….no action on anything yet from FAZMANIA>…….Soler to KC for Davis, who the Dodgers were checking into.
Dodgers have allegedly had interest in a number of players. Until something actually happens we are left to sit and wait. Think I’ll take a nap.
Well they have been sleeping in that FO all week so why not. I heard they have a deal on the table for Dozier with the Twinkies thinking it over…….AJ to the Marlins 1 year 2.5 mil….Happy for the guy, just might be enough incentive for Kenley to pull the trigger and go to the Marlins…….the owner approved the cash for a closer….
I am kind of glad we didn’t trade for Wade Davis, because he had injury issues last year.
Amd he wasn’t pitching that well, towards the end of the season last year.
The Cubs can take this risk, because they won it all last year.
That leaves the Yankees, the Marlins, the Nationals, and us, left for Kenley and Chapman.
I can’t see Kenley going to the Marlins, after the role he played in the post season last year.
He won’t be going to the post season for a long time, if he goes to the Marlins.
Colorado gave up the #11 pick in June’s draft for Ian Desmond.
Unreal
They felt it was worth it because the new FO here is in a win now mode and they slot Desmond as a 1st baseman. Have had a revolving door there since Helton retired.
Just signed up for a new Internet Service, this one through the local (and I mean local) power service. If memory serves me correctly, they will be the seventh I’ve used in 13 years here. The one I am currently on is cable, which gives ($50 a month?) me 15 MGB, which is plenty for me, the new one will be wireless at the same price and 25MGB. That isn’t why I changed. My service is out every morning, then comes to life between 7 and 9AM. Technical support calls confirm there is nothing wrong with my equipment and that I am not online but by the time the cable guy gets here (8Am earliest) the problem is gone. They can’t seem to figure out they need a guy here at 6AM to find the problem. So it’s time to move on… I don’t know yet when the actual changeover will be. The new one (power company) is going to switch to Fiber Optic eventually and kick the MGB up to 50 for the same price.
Interesting.
There was a nation-wide movement to use the power infrastructure to deliver broadband, but it got caught up in installation costs.
Can I ask a favor Wondering, can you keep us posted on the switch to fiber? Will it be fiber to the door, or fiber to the node?
Tell you when I know. Yes, I read about that one cable thing years ago, telephone, TV, Internet, electricity, all on one wire. Supposed to have been testing it but I haven’t heard anything lately. One thing a little different here, they don’t have meter readers. The electric company can access your electric meter direct from their office.
Wondering
What do those poor dogs do with no one reading the electric meters?
You know how they like to scare those meter readers.
I guess there are the gas guys.
No gas, or meter readers. Also no water or sewer. One utility, a cooperative electric company. (That means all users are part owners of the company and get to vote on things.) Everyone has their own well and septic tank. Oops, we do have trash pickup once a week. No police department, we contract with the county sheriff for patrol services. That means they come when we call but they don’t drive around giving out traffic tickets. That is one bright side to this place. Crime is pretty low here, we have Right To Carry Law and you see many people walking around with a gun on their belt, and know there are many more carrying concealed. I guess I spent too long in California, I can’t get comfortable carrying a gun, though there are several in the house if needed…
Where are you Wonder? Sounds interesting, except for the open carry thing. I had a friend, extremely intelligent, in California who had an idea for small energy coops to become completely independent. The design was for 4-12 houses. She never got it off the ground. I know she got a lot of negative feedback from PG&E, but don’t know if that’s the reason.
I put down all firearms after I left the Marine Corps in ’69. I’ve never felt the need for one. I did enough shooting in Vietnam to last several lifetimes.
Will Boston win 100?
Southern Nevada, about 60 miles west of Las Vegas. I grew up with guns, they’ve been a big part of my life from the beginning, yet I was never in the military or law enforcement, never killed anyone or any animal bigger than a rabbit, they were just recreational toys. I guess that’s why I don’t consider carrying. I do think people are more polite when guns are around. Even the cops.
I predicted 4/72 with an option for 5th yr that includes 3m buyout. Time to get it done.
Listened to DV last night. He said the Twins have an offer on the table from the Dodgers for Dozier. Minnesota has new management and are hesitant on whether to pull the trigger.
Hawkeye
I think you are close, and if it is even close or less, that would be a really good deal, for a middle of the order hitter, that plays such good defense.
Wondering
Everything is pretty cheap out there isn’t it?
I bet the houses are cheap, and any rentals they have, is cheap too.
But the electric bill is probably higher during the time it is hot there.
Right on. I have my electricity on a level pay plan and it works out to $230 a month. But no gas, water, or sewerage charge.
Wondering,
I don’t own a gun, and I have never shot a gun either.
I do have one of those gun signs in my window, that is most vulnerable.
I think it says, that these premises are
protected by Smith and Wesson.
Hawk, do u know the details of that proposed deal?
I’d guess Calhoun is involved?
Actually, much higher in January-February than July-August.
I have several weapons in my home. 357 Mag….45 auto…..9mm auto….. two 22 rifles, a tactical shotgun and a 9 mm carbine. I do not anticipate any trouble or problems, but I am more than ready if it comes……my sign says forget the dog, beware of owner….
MJ, while some seem to believe anti gun laws make living safer I feel it’s best to be the most efficient-IE the Smith & Wesson is more efficient than the sign, or baseball bat or machete, fists or most other things that come to mind. The sort that’ll come into your home armed with ill intent usually doesn’t come alone. Myself, those anti gun laws make it safer for me as I’ll have the advantage of those likely thinking I’m unarmed. Hopefully I’ll never have the need to remove such item from it’s well hidden secure spot.
If I were 40 years younger, I’d put in solar panels. Near as I can figure, Panels on one-fourth of my one acre would have the power company sending me money every month. It’d cost 15 or 20 grand to buy the panels and get them set up. Another good thing to do IF I was 40 years younger… What it says though, is screw the Arabs, we have more than enough renewable energy available in wind, hydro, thermal, solar and don’t even get me started on tide generators…
If I were 40 years younger…….I would be out honky Tonkin, playin that good country music, drinking bourbon straight and chasing women………that’s just me though ,,….
He didnt mention names, but he said specific names have been exchanged and it is more than a fair offer. The ball is in the Twins court. I would guess Calhoun and some young pitchers.
Ellis signed. https://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/806610533441032192
Back with DM in Miami…..
Michael
They have an article in Dodger Insider, about today.
I guess the Dodgers were playing the Giants on that actually day.
That was a pro football game..the game was interrupted for the announcement of the attack.. Yes there was a pro football team for a short while called the Brooklyn Dodgers. I think they were playing that day at the Polo Grounds in NY.
There goes the Dodgers chemistry.
Takes a bigger hit if both Turner and Utley gone. They along with A-Gone are the glue in that clubhouse….
Bobby
I think it is the outfielder, who played for Mexico, against Japan this year, with Agone.
Alex Verdugo is who I think you are referring to. Would make sense considering the glut in the outfield..
Thanks Michael, this is the guy.
Wow – lots of snarky stuff today. And all of the nasty lawyer comments. I won’t even comment further…
As to my earlier “amusing” comments about the economics of free agency (so dubbed by Bluto), here is some Econ 101:
A thing has an intrinsic value, it has the value that the market sets on it, and the value placed on it by any individual owner, buyer and seller. If the market values an item more highly than a given buyer, the buyer usually won’t buy, absent some compulsion. (An example of this is some mandatory program such as auto or health insurance.) Sometimes, even if you value an item the way the market does, you don’t buy it because you can’t afford it – otherwise, everyone would be driving a BMW.
As Badger pointed out, an auction tends to increase the motivation of some to purchase an item. As dodgerpatch commented, this can result in “irrational exuberance.” The problem remains though that if the market values a free agent player more highly (in $$ value) than you do, you let him go unless for some other reason you decide to pay more than his value – say the scarcity of the player or the need of the team that cannot be met some other way. Maybe the Dodgers resign Turner for this reason but decide not to resign Jansen.
The A’s/Rays model is that even if they accept the way the market values a player, they don’t buy him because:
1 – they can’t afford it
2 – they value the possibility that the prospects that they obtain for a current player will be good more highly than they value the player that they are losing.
The Dodgers are currently acting “poor” because of the debt and luxury tax issues previously discussed. They don’t sign big money players but give ubiquitous $48MM contracts to the likes of McCarthy, Kazmir and Hill. (It’s not that $48MM is chump change – it’s that they won’t spend more on better players, hoping that the old and infirm will somehow pay off.) And the Braintrust would rather have prospects than retain their own players – at least as far as Jansen is concerned. (Even though we are told that the model to follow is to grow your own and keep them. That model doesn’t apply to closers or to a current player who cost too much in free agency I guess.)
The reason that I assert that the Braintrust will adhere to their Rays/A’s roots is the above-reference observation – you grow your own, but do you keep them? I suspect not, except for your “face of the franchise” player. Expect to see Seager extended – but probably not many others.
Finally, an observation by Jon Weisman at Dodgers Insider:
“What happens to this formula in the postseason, when the value of volume gives ground to the need for elite performance?”
Assuming that the Dodgers would rather have “depth” (defined as a number of warm bodies who can throw 4 or 5 innings per start) rather than ace-caliber pitchers, how does the preference for quantity over quality work out when the chips are down? That’s why the market values ace pitcher and other stars the way that it does.
Well said and thought out. I know they are concerned with the tax cap, and they are going to exceed it again this year because they already have a ton of cash committed to 12 players. So the other 13 will definitely but them in the penalty box. I am starting to think it will be 2019 before they manage to get where they want to be salary wise, and they had better lock up Corey before he hits the arbitration stage because that kid has the talent to break the bank.
Dodger rick
That is a good reason to sign Turner.
He hits in the post season, unlike some of the other players.
And if they are going to have all of these starting pitchers, that don’t pitch deep into games, they better sign a closer, and get some arms for the bullpen.
I just read on TV that Kenley’s pick, is making some teams, to get cold feet.
Watch….he rejoins DM in Florida…….sources say both he and Chapman are close to making a decision, and Chapman has a 92 million dollar offer on the table….you can bet the house that offer is not from the Dodgers. Turner will come back to LA if he gets 5 years…..if not…..adios…….
A few small domino’s falling into place…Matt Holiday signing is official……..Nationals close to a deal for Adam Eaton of the White Sox, probably means they are not after McC at all anymore. He is a pretty decent CF. I think a lot of action, if it happens, will come this evening. Seems when the Kemp and Gordon deals went down, it was right before they closed up shop and went home. Giants not pursuing their former relievers, Casilla, Romo, or Lopez. They also seem to be shopping Chris Heston……
a liitle shocked what they got for Eaton..
Wow….#1…#3 prospects and one other player and I think all 3 are pitchers. ..well the Nats must have a lot of faith in what they have on the team and in the pipeline…….Eaton will be a great leadoff hitter for them though. I remember the guy from when he was a D-Back
Lucas Giolito was the only pitcher ranked higher than Urias in last year’s top 100. Wow. The Sox just totally revamped their minor league system!
I’m glad the Nats didn’t get Sale.
I wonder what happened to Ben Revere?
Last seen riding horseback through Boston shouting, “The British are coming!”,… Oh, no, that was Paul
Yeah…that worked out well…….
I wonder that too MJ. He’s a good player, fast, good base stealer and while he’s LHB, his career BA vs LHP is actually higher(.291) than against RHP.
Some team will pick him up.
BTW he loves Dodger Stadium .404 lifetime.
Here is the question for today, will they be able to move McCarthy, and Kazmir?
Only if the receiving teams GM is a moron………and the Dodgers pay a large chunk of the salary of those 2.
FAZ trying to move Kazmir and McCarthey:
Now that is frippen funny right there! LOL
Wondering, you’re from baker? If so, you went to high school in Barstow if you were still there at that age and at what was then Kennedy High. 60 miles west of Vegas is California and I had a buddy who lived in Mountain Pass who went to Kennedy along with a few that resided in Baker. It’d be hard to believe we don’t know several of the same people. Alan Voshall, Ron Alexander, Doug Edwards just to name a few. Myself, at high school age I lived in Apple Valley.
Nope. If you draw a straight line from Las Vegas to Death Valley, right where that line crosses from Nevada to California is where I am. I’m maybe 5 mile from Calif. And I never went to school in California, only Indiana and Nevada. I have driven through Baker and Apple Valley, but that’s all…
In that case, I know some girls who worked in Pahrump……well, they call it dancing….
Yes, we do have that but I’ve never checked it out. Someone told me cab drivers who take customers there get 10% of the money they spend. Legend has it one cab driver earned $17,000 one night. ???
Quas
Don’t feel bad, I thought he lived in those two places too.