Baseball America released its Top Ten lists for baseball prospects yesterday, and here’s how BA ranked the Dodgers’ Top Ten Prospects:
- Cody Bellinger 1st base/OF
- Yadier Alvarez RHP
- Jose De Leon RHP
- Alex Verdugo OF
- Willie Calhoun 2nd base
- Andrew Toles OF
- Yusniel Diaz OF
- Brock Stewart RHP
- Gavin Lux SS
- Austin Barnes C/2nd base
The fruits of the Dodgers’ labor and selfish hoarding of prospects in their farm leagues is steadily paying off, as evidenced by the emergence of 2016 Rookie of the Year Corey Seager, young pitchers Julio Urias and Jose De Leon, and possible 2017 left fielder Andrew Toles.
Baseball America placed Cody Bellinger atop the list, and here’s why. He plays first base and has middle-of-the-lineup power, but he also possesses five-tools talent that go beyond the first baseman,slugger stereotype. On a defensive grading scale of 20-80, Bellinger rates in the 70s. He’s got speed and a strong left arm which make him a viable option for the outfield corners. Bonus: He hits left-handed pitching well.
Expect to see Bellinger starting in Oklahoma City in 2017. With an aging Adrian Gonzalez at first, we may very well see Bellinger at Chavez Ravine toward the end of the season.
Bellinger played the majority of 2016 with AA Tulsa and finished up with AAA Oklahoma. He put up these numbers for the season: .365/.507/.872
Yadier Alvarez is the latest of the Dodgers’ Cuban prospects to come down the line. The right-handed pitcher made his pro debut last season. He started with the Arizona Rookie League and was promoted to Class A Great Lakes. He finished 2016 with a 2.12 ERA and 81 strikeouts over 59 1/3 innings. On that 20-80 scouting grade scale, Alvarez earned an overall score of 60. The kid throws 100 mph with ease, and that’s how fast he may advance through the farms to the mound at Chavez Ravine.
Jose De Leon actually did make it to the hallowed Dodger Stadium mound in 2016. He started out strong in AAA with a 7-1 record, 2.61 ERA and 111 Ks. He was a late (but necessary) call up to the big club in September, and he won his first two ML starts. Unfortunately, his next two starts did not go as well, and he missed out on a spot on the postseason roster.
His big league stats after four starts: 2-0, 6.35 ERA, 15 K, 7 W over 17 innings.
The future is indeed promising, and it’s arriving right on schedule.
Oscar Martinez
I was born in the shadow of Dodger Stadium and immediately drenched in Dodger Blue. Chavez Ravine is my baseball cathedral, Vin Scully was the golden voice of summer all my life, and Tommy Lasorda remains the greatest Dodgers manager ever. My favorite things are coffee, beer, and the Dodgers beating the Giants. I also blog about my baseball card hobby at All Trade Bait, All the Time.
Follow Me:
Trade 1: JDL, Alex Verdugo, Yadier Alvarez, Edwin Rios, Omar Estevez, and Andre Ethier for Mike Trout.
Pros: Mike Trout! Dump the last year of Ethier’s contract. (If he won’t waive his no-trade clause inform him he’s no longer a starter)
Cons: Give up 4 young studs in JDL, Verdugo, Alvarez, Estevez.
Trade 2: Julio Urias and Adrian Gonzalez for Andrew McCutchen and Tyler Glasnow.
Pros: Minor League #1 RHP SP Glasnow is a 200 IP workhorse (Urias is probably not good for 200 IP consistently). Balances out LH heavy Dodger rotation. Another RH bat in McCutchen with only one year left on his contract. Dump last two years of Gonzo’s contract.
Cons: Urias is Minor League #1 LHP prospect, Gonzo is a stud and model citizen.
Trade 3: Yasiel Puig for Michel Kopech RHP (ChiSox #3 propect)
Pros: Kopech has filthy stuff, with a 1.10 WHIP last year (part of the ChiSox return for Sale). He can start in two years or relieve in 1 year. Get rid of Puig distraction (let him chill with fellow Cubans Jose Abreu & Yoan Moncada in Chicago).
Cons: Kopech has tested positive for a PED, and had broke his hand in a fight with a teammate. Possibly selling low on Puig.
Salaries are essentially a wash for 2017, but the team is much improved and more balanced in LF/RH pitching and position players, without losing too much in prospects.
Check out this Lineup:
CF: Mike Trout (R)
SS: Corey Seager (L)
3B: Justin Turner (R)
C: Yasmani Grandal (S)
RF: Andrew McCutchen (R)
LF: Joc Pedersen (L)
1B: Van Slyke/Bellinger (June-ish) (R/L)
2B: Kike/Willie Calhoun (R/L)
P: Pitcher
Rotation:
LHP: Clayton Kershaw
LHP: Rich Hill
RHP: Kenta Maeda
RHP: Tyler Glasnow
SP: McCarthy/Kazmir/Ryu
Bench:
Andrew Toles
Trayce Thompson
Darin Ruf
Austin Barnes
Rob Segedin
Chris Taylor
Kike/Willie Calhoun
Bullpen:
RHP: Kenley Jansen
LHP: Alex Wood
RHP: Ross Stripling
LHP: Luis Avilan
RHP: Pedro Baez
RHP: Grand Dayton
LHP: Adam Liberatore
Tier 1 Prospects: Cody Bellinger, Willie Calhoun, Michael Kopech, Walker Buehler, Yusniel Diaz, Gavin Lux, Jordan Sheffield, Will Smith
Tier 2 Prospects: Starling Heredia, Brock Stewart, Josh Sborz, Abdullah, De Jong, Rhame, Brandon Davis, Ronny Brito, Kiebert Ruiz, Mitch Hansen, Mitch White, Trevor Oaks.
OMG!! Whatever you’re smoking I DON’T WANT ANY PART OF IT!!!!!!!!!!! First of all, I won’t even mention the trades you suggest. Pure fantasy.
In addition, you list 27 players on the 25 man roster and GRANT Dayton is LH not RH. Geeze
Hang in there Adam. Your take is as good as anything we have guessed at regarding Dozier. It would be awesome to get Trout.
again, a total dream and nothing else…..Trout is the face of the Angels and not going anywhere. Especially to the team just north of Anaheim.
True.
But, lets see how the Angels do this year. If they don’t win 75 games next year and Puig becomes an All Star and playoff stud, things might change regarding Trout and the Dodgers.
You are living in a total fantasy land, first off the Angel fans would be in total revolt if they traded that guy to the Dodgers. Informing Ethier he is no longer a starter would not be news to Andre no would it affect his usage of his no trade. Puig is not going anywhere for a guy who at this point is nothing more than a prospect and neither is Urias.
Adam… You go now!!! Your trade suggestions are just as good as 3/4 of the crapola that fills LADreport
and anyhow herb is legal now here in SoCal…
Thanks Peter! No herbs for me, though.
The Angels have to rebuild and Trout is their only chip. The Dodgers would give them a bunch of young studs.
The Pirates need a LH SP and we need a righty. Also, the need a 1B and need to unload McCutchen,
Trading Puig (headache) for somebody’s minor league (stud) pitching headache seems reasonable.
Trading Puig, who you consider a head ache before he gets to prove he has changed his tune is dumb. The kid was an improved player when he came back from AAA. And he has been busting his heinie according to all reports this winter. Giving up on him too soon is really dumb.
Not giving up on Puig; I’m getting something good for him while he has value. In August he had 0 value. Here’s the numbers of the 20 year old minor leaguer with nasty stuff:
2016 Team: NYP, CAR
W L ERA G GS SV IP H HR BB K AVG WHIP GO/AO
4 1 2.08 12 12 0 56.1 29 1 33 86 .156 1.10 0.80
That is AA ball. And the kid is a few years away. McCutcheon is on the way down. A change might help him, but I would keep the 25 year old Puig. Too much upside, and too many questions on the other side. Not my idea of a good trade.
I dig it Adam. Not afraid to step out there. Keep it up.
I don’t do that second trade, for sure.
Urias might be a better post season pitcher, then Kershaw some day.
And he may have a innings limit next year, but why wouldn’t he be able
to pitch 200 innings consistently?
He has a very good upside.
I don’t make many trade decisions, and I have seen worse, so keep it up.
I will say this, the Pirates are a small market team, so I don’t see them paying the rest of Agone’s contract.
For the record, I will only do the first trade.
For the record, you are smoking the same bad stuff he is…….
Adam and Fred have the same source…
Well thought out, Adam. Not sure if I’d do everything you said, but at least you have good reasons to back up your ideas.
There’s tons of ridic trade proposals thrown out on this board, and yours don’t make that list.
Yes, I am a dreamer.
For a dreamer is the one who can only find his way by moonlight,
and his punishment is that he sees the dawn
before the rest of the world. — Oscar Wilde
In my life I have found that men who have achieved great things have been great dreamers!
I find it reassuring that so many people get bent out of shape by those dreams. Then I know I am on to something…
I think I am going to throw up….
I am sad that someone took your dreams… and soul!
When people can’t make conversation they usually make snarky comments instead. Wondering has never shown any imagination in here. And as Albert Einstein so eloquently stated: “Imagination is everything. It is the preview for life’s coming attractions.”
Imagination. Yeah, you and Don Quixote. I have been trying to be tolerant.
Bum
I don’t know about that, Wondering has posted a lot of different videos, and pictures.
MJ, you already picked your side. Enjoy Wondering’s tolerance.
There was a time when Andre Ethier was as cancerous to the Dodgers as Matt Kemp. I was never a big Ethier fan – I called him Mr. Softee – but I am proud of how he matured and became a team leader. He’s a standup guy now.
I am glad Adrian Gonzalez was a Dodger – he is first-class human and solid ballplayer. He is a man!
That said, never forget that in 2017, the Dodgers are paying Andre Ethier and Adrian Gonzalez $60+ million dollars (well, that includes Carl Crawford whom they had to take to get Gonzo).
Tell me what front office has ever had that sort of handicap?
I mean, the Red Sox don’t pay that much to Betts, Bradley, Pedroia, Bogarts, Ramirez and Leon combined and yet they have 12 times the WAR.
The Cubs don’t pay Rizzo, Bryant, Schwarber, Heyward, Russell and Baez that combined and they have 10 Times the WAR.
Do you really realize who big that albatross is?
Let me put it into even more perspective: The Dodgers could pay all but $20 million of that $60 million and they still could no trade them. Before the first pitch is ever thrown, FAZ is at a $60 milion dollar disadvantage which means they have to take risks that no one else has to.
This year, no matter what, Ethier and Crawfish come off the books. That saves the Dodgers $40 million. After 2018, A-Gon comes off the books.
Can the Dodgers trade A-Gon or Ethier? Doubtful! But you can bet your sweet bippy they are trying like hell.
Ah. Mark Timmons. Another silly rant.
You wrote:
I am glad Adrian Gonzalez was a Dodger – he is first-class human and solid ballplayer. He is a man!
I’m glad we’ve confirmed Adrian Gonzalez’ gender. That was a big contention point.
You wrote:
That said, never forget that in 2017, the Dodgers are paying Andre Ethier and Adrian Gonzalez $60+ million dollars (well, that includes Carl Crawford whom they had to take to get Gonzo).
Tell me what front office has ever had that sort of handicap?
Um. How about the Red Sox with Price, Hanley and Pablo? How about the Angels with Pujols and Weaver? How about Detroit with Upton, Cabrera and Verlander? How about the Yankees with Ellsbury, Sabathia and Tanaka? How about Texas with Hamels, Choo and Beltre?
You wrote: Can the Dodgers trade A-Gon or Ethier? Doubtful! But you can bet your sweet bippy they are trying like hell.
Wrong. Because the can’t trade Ethier, and are too smart than to create holes in a lineup by trading the first basemen.
I write:
Go back to listening to your sources.
Thank you Bluto for making my argument.
I am not even going to waste time in looking up the WAR of each player, but Price and Hanley were productive. Upton, Verlander and Cabrera were productive. Hamels and Beltre were productive. Weaver and Pujols were productive. Ethier and Crawfish weren’t and A-Gon is in huge decline.
You don’t like it that I have a couple of sources (which were not even part of this dialogue which means you have some childish issue with that – that’s on you), but you act like you “KNOW” they won’t trade Gonzo.
I write: Go back to talking out of your a–, little man!
BTW, you corrected me for a typo once, but I’ll leave yours alone. I’m not a little b—–.
Which year was Hanley productive?
And Price has the highest paid contract for a pitcher, and he sure didn’t pitch like no ace, so he wasn’t productive by your standards!
2013…..he was a force toward the end of the season and was on a tear. When he went down against St Louis in the playoffs, any chance of winning died right there…
You forgot pujols and hamilton for anaheim
Yes, you are right – and that KILLED them!
The Dodgers won in spite of it!
Michael
I was taking about when Hanley was with the Red Sox, in the first year, that he was there.
Hanley was productive last year.
Mark
If you should be complaining about contracts, you should be complaining about
all the wasted money, on Anderson, McCarthy, and Kazmir!
That is more money then Agone is getting paid, and the only difference, is that Agone has produced, since he has joined this team, unlike these three.
And he played in more games then anyone, since he has joined this team.
He also has been the Dodger’s number one RBI leader, since he has joined the team.
Except last year, when he tied for the team Lead, with Turner.
I bet his neck is hurting him more, then any pain that Kazmiz, and McCarthy have.
Those two seem to find a way, not to get out there, and pitch.
And Kazmir didn’t like being on the Dodgers, and he wanted out, after he signed that multi year contract!
Bum
I don’t like when two, or against one.
And I don’t take sides.
But I guess you have.
Its not 2 against 1. Wondering picked a fight against two simultaneously and is getting 2 responses simultaneously in return.
You and I used to banter back and forth about our favorite players and then you stopped and joined with Art. Go back and look.
Bum
I didn’t know what was said at the bottom right away, because I was writing a response to Marks ideas.
If you look, I wrote two responses to Mark’s ideas, before I got down on this post.
Remember after I made a point to tell you that was a good point about Bulher, you said you had something for me, and Wondering.
And I just responded for fun, in fact you got me going, and I was arguing with Mark that evening.
I didn’t like arguing with him, back and forth that night, so I went to bed.
I just thought you and Wondering have a thing, that you guys go back, and forth with each other.
When you and he, respond with each, other, you guys can be funny back and forth.
I don’t like when people get mean and personal, with each other.
And I just figured it is what guys do, so I try to stay out if it, or try to lighten it.
You don’t usually get like that.
I like everybody, and like I said, I try to stay out of it.
Bum
After Wondering responded to Mark, you got involved between those two.
And I made a positive statement, to try to change the talk.
Like I said, I don’t like those type of interactions.
Not really MJ. Wondering made a snide remark aimed at both Mark and me and Mark replied first. I added on to Mark’s reply because I was no longer going to reply to Wondering.
Here is your comment that I took as going beyond our banter about Joc and Agon:
MJ says:
January 13, 2017 at 11:12 am
Wondering
Have you kept count on how many trades Bum has tried to make, for every other teams, top prized prospect, to date?
Tolerance, Bluto. If you had done what Mr. Timmons did, spent 8 years in a cell with Bubba, you’d have a lot of problems too…
You have no idea what you are saying. You are just a sad old man.
Bum
You started it that day, after I complemented you, on that remark about Bulher.
Remember you said that you had something for me, and Wondering, so I thought you were joking.
I was just teasing you, and I thought you understood that, that day.
That wasn’t yesterday, that was the day before.
In case anyone is wondering, I’m the one who unapproved that last comment. I’ve said it before, and I’ll mention it once again, any time I see what I construe to be “fighting words” or otherwise see comments that have no business on a blog that carries my name behind it – that comment will be deleted.
Be spirited, argue your side vehemently, but be (mostly) civil. That is all.
So, he can say what he says and Wondering can say what he says, but I can’t respond?
That’s very two-faced!
That’s total BS, but if that’s your decision then so be it!
Wondering and Bluto? Maybe they are the same guy. At any rate, I am gone.
I just wrote a post and Bluto came back with insults, but I can’t reply?
I’ll be at LA Dodger Talk soon..
Good day!
I’m not Bluto, as a matter of fact, I usually disagree with him. I believe what I wrote is truth but I’ll be glad to leave anyway, there is little entertainment value here for me and Bumsrap is most uncomfortable with me, and most of all, I believe Mark Timmons is a lot more important to this blog than I am, so I can leave with good spirits. just say the words. No bad feelings.
How can you believe what you write is truth when you don’t know the facts?
It’s 100% fiction.
Should I reference the web site here?
Start it up Mark.
This is the impetus for me to do it. Next week….
Up to that point in this thread I didn’t see any reason to strike anyone’s comment.
I’ve read plenty of comments here that make me wince, but I make a pretty clear line about what I consider unacceptable banter.
I’ll make it clearer – belittling, personally insulting, fighting words that only lead the discussion downward in flames will not be tolerated when I come across them.
To your direct question, Mark, of course you can respond. Respond to anybody, anytime.
Your original reply was fine except for the spirit at the end of that comment. I noticed you edited the spelling of those words, but while it is about words and language, it’s also about the spirit, the feeling that comes across in the comment. It felt like a personal attack that cut a bit too close.
While many of you regulars might accept harsh words and personal attacks in the comments section as part of the game, I have to be responsible to the new readers that LADR attracts and will be attracting through 2017.
Not everybody thinks referring to others as “Little bitches” is cute or harmless.
I’m not asking anyone to leave. I love all of you here carrying on crazy trade talks, and the usual comment section rhubarbs. Without you readers and commenters, LADR would be an empty shell.
Questions?
Writer proposing another Braun-Puig trade…
http://www.the3rdmanin.com/brewers-dodgers-trade-idea-featuring-ryan-braun/
Report from a Dodger Intern
http://www.mlb451.com/working-for-the-dodgers-part-1/
I enjoyed reading that.
Spirited stuff in here – except for the pompous rants.
I have no problem with creative trade proposals. I don’t think any of that will happen, but what the heck, it’s winter.
Oscar, what comment are you referring to? I missed it. A lot of rude stuff is allowed in here, who triggered a censor and why?
Wondering,
Reference anything you want. You are totally clueless.
Here is what the little man is talking about:
(Link removed – This forum is not the place to post links about personal interactions with the judicial system)
It was overturned later… after I acted as my own attorney and proved the Prosecutor, Judge, Police and Therapist lied. It will all be in the book this December.
You invade the privacy of my daughter who was the pawn in all of this. It’s good you are not standing in front of me…
I can believe prosecutors and cops lied. I can believe a judge would overlook lying prosecutors and lying cops. It’s more difficult for me to believe a team of several therapists and child psychologists would conspire in a fraudulent prosecution. But, whatever. I’m prepared to move away from this.
Check my reply to MT above.
Oscar
Don’t worry about it!
I think Mark will agree he jumped to a conclusion about you, because you did not stop his response.
You just warned everyone.
This is my last comment.
You can find me at LaDodgerTalk.com in the future.
Good bye and good luck in your endeavors
Look forward to seeing an old friend pitch again
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/213549030/ryan-dempster-eric-gagne-join-team-canada/
Watford
Spring training is almost here!
Well, that was a long time coming.
Many have already read that court ruling. Most that did don’t post here anymore. I had it sent to me a long while ago. I don’t know what to believe as that ruling says the verdict was upheld. As a teacher in California I used to work with child psychologists and it’s hard for me to believe a group of them would conspire, but that is what Mark alleges. I also know that anyone convicted of that crime has a very rough time in prison. I hope Mark does stay away. I think it’s time. I have given a lot of thought to this situation, talked with numerous people regarding it, people in the child protection industry and former posters. Obviously I have my own opinions. But this isn’t the forum, is it.
I assume when he leaves he will no longer have poster personal information? He used it to ID and expose people trying to post under a different name.
Pitchers and catchers can’t report soon enough.
“One Dodgers official says Carl Crawford’s career is likely over. At last check, the 35-year-old seemed likely to try to make a comeback next season. There’s been no official word from Crawford about any retirement plans, however. The Dodgers designated Crawford for assignment last June, then released him, even though he still had $35MM remaining on his $142MM contract at the time. At the time of his release, he was batting .185/.230/.235 in 87 plate appearances, and he had missed time due to a back injury.”
I figure those who call him Crawfish probably don’t want to talk about a back injury being responsible for the collapse of a terrific players career, but I think he’s an example of what can happen to 30+ players with a lot of miles on them. A comeback? I wish him well.
Badger
I don’t have any bad feelings, about Crawford either.
I know he was once a very good athlete, and a top quarterback, in high school.
It is not his fault, that he had to play on that terrible field, the Rays have.
I know he wanted to do well for the Dodgers, but he wasn’t healthy enough, to do that.
He did help us win a couple play off games, when he was healthy enough to play.
One must remember MT uses this blog as a water boarding exercise… He’ll get to some and not others… Sometimes he does come up with a gem, but mostly tired old dump the Trade diatribe…
I thought Wunderlick was banned???
I too liked CC… When he was healthy, Katy bar the door… He could beat you in many ways…
Who’s Wunderlick? And why would he be banned.
Mark is who he is and who he is hasn’t changed in the 20 years or so I’ve known him. I used to like him, early on, but the more I watched and learned, the more I realized he and have opposite positions on nearly every relevant issue. I hope he does start up Dodgertalk and those of like mind can have a place to yak about whatever they choose. I won’t miss him if he does go and I would encourage many of the old posters who left to come back here. I can write some of them and see if they’re interested.
If you are referring to me, I guess I’m not banned, nobody told me yet in any event. But as stated before, I am willing to go quietly if it’s the will of the board. Couple of things just for the record:
1. Mark isn’t banned either, as far as I know, he chose to leave and that is a big loss to all of us. He contributed a lot to the life of this board, in his own way, and made it a more interesting place, more than I contribute for sure , and that is why we come here. Pity he couldn’t have been a little more kind and gentle, but then he wouldn’t have been Mark.
2. He himself posted the website, not I. His first mistake was using his own name, and I hope everyone learns from it. If there is anything at all in your past, someone will find out about it and use it against you if they can. If your record is clean, they can plant stuff. Always use a Nom de Plume.
I hope he comes back, albeit a little less aggressive.
Wondering
It seems like you learned some French, in school.
In reading, not in school. Have been an avid reader all my life, learned far more from books than from teachers. Spent the first seven years of my schooling in a one room country school, with one teacher. Do the math, that works out to about 30 minutes per class per day, assuming all eight classes were represented. It is what you make of it. I was exposed to the curriculum of the higher classes before I was officially in them, so getting good grades was pretty effortless. And I read every book, all ten of them in the school library, multiple times . I coasted through high school just as easy, which speaks volumes on how much they are (were?) not teaching. But then in college all the good training in learning I had missed out on caught up with me and I soon quit and went to work instead because it was easier. C’est la Vie! More French I didn’t learn in school. Actually I took Latin, two years, and that has been most useful. No regrets on my school and work history. Not great, not exciting, no great achievements, but no regrets…
Sounds like the school my dad went to in St James Missouri. You appear to be very matriculate for a guy who has only read 10 books.
I don’t know Mark from anywhere, except this message board.
In my life, I have been very involved with the upbringing of four children, two girls and two boys, including one step-daughter. I KNOW from this experience that ANY child under the age of three or three and one-half would not be a reliable witness or have a reliable memory of ANYTHING. Any criminal case based on the memory of an infant is a crock of shit. If Mom was so worried about sexual abuse she would have had plenty of opportunities to confirm her suspicions with physical evidence by taking the child to a Doctor for a physical examination after one of the alleged incidents.
For some child psychologist to “play act”, after the fact, with a three year old (with dolls) would be a process that would be highly likely to produce a result that the quack and her paying client desired. Mark calling his daughter a “pawn” is highly accurate. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
I believe an INFANT sex abuser would have to be a very sick person, possessed by a cancer that would return and return to wreak havoc. Has Mark been plagued by these types of allegations at any other times in his life? What we know about Mark is that he has accomplished many great things in his life, including raising other successful children.
Sadly, I am not surprised that Badger would attempt to “pile on” by using his couple year substitute teaching career (before being fired) and his alleged extensive “child psychology” contacts, from that period to confirm Mark’s alleged criminal actions thousands of miles away. This after complaining many times on this board about lying police, prosecutors, judges, lawyers, profit oriented prisons and the whole court system, in his step-son’s case. Very sad!
Oh brother. “Very sad”? That drips of contemporary Twitter bullshit.
Nobody is piling on here catbox. I spent 5 years studying childhood education and am credentialed in the field, not that education means a thing to you. And you have my work history completely wrong, another misinformation tactic. And for your information those in the field are highly trained in separating fact from fiction when it comes to interviewing abused children. And frankly you jumping in to support Timmons should come as a surprise to no one.
Badger
I never knew that John Kerry spoke out against Vietnam, as an out going vet, in 1971, in Washington.
I just saw that, on the history channel.
Yeah, I know at the time some vets were split on that issue. Its important to keep in mind many Vietnam vets, me included, went to fight in a war that was one lie after another. We didn’t know it in ’66, but we learned very quickly. To go through that, survive, and be treated like sh*t on a shoe by the public, and denied help by a corrupt government was impossible for many vets to process. That war was unnecessary, ugly, illegal, immoral and destroyed millions of lives. I kept all my medals, but I don’t proudly display them. They are in a box in a closet and will be given to my son when I die. Who knows, maybe somebody in my family will appreciate what I went through some day.
Badger: I don’t post as much as you and others do and when I do sometimes you and I butt heads together. However, I’ll say this. I too, was in the military although afew years before you(61-64) and I back you 1000%.
Thank you for your service. My brother was going to Canada instead of fulfilling his military obligation and I haven’t spoken to him since with NO regret. I don’t know whether he is dead or alive and I could care less.
The point being someone had to take his place and may or may not have come back. Again, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!!!!!
Badger
But remember Kerry, had just got out of Nam, right before he, and other vets, went to D.C. to try to give there point of view.
When I was watching that today, a guy that served in Nam, said something, that reminded me, of something you said, not to long ago.
He said that we were trying to serve our country, just like our fathers did, in World War Two.
Well yeah, that is why I joined. I believed what I was doing was honorable. It wasn’t until I got there and saw what it was we were actually doing that it dawned on me that everything I was told was a lie. I just turned 18 when I signed up, 19 when I went over.
I don’t know Kerry’s story other than he was a college graduate and should have known better.
Thank you for your words Richie. I appreciate it.
RichieF, It made me sad to hear about your relationship with your brother. I hope we never have another draft again.
It’s not the draft that’s the problem Bum, it’s the ongoing corporate wars. Young men and women can benefit greatly from some kind of service. The United States is in perpetual war (228 out of 241 years) and we do so for economic reasons. It’s despicable but it’s who we are. It’s a shame so many fled the country.
Boxout
I thought you were getting ready for the inauguration, because we haven’t heard from you.
Wondering,
I bet your education was better then a lot of us, who are a little younger, then you.
But you are right, it is what you make of your education.
I read a lot, but I didn’t read a lot of books, when I was young.
I started at a very young age, reading the newspaper every morning, before I went to school.
And when I got older, I read a lot of books, but I haven’t lately.
You know, opinions are like noses – everybody has one. Some have opinions that are better informed or more well-reasoned than others, but a blog is a great place for people to put their opinions out there. I am however a believer in civil discourse.
I am weary of the name calling, profanity, and tone from some who post or have posted here. I have stayed away on occasion due to this weariness.
So bluto disagreed with Mark’s insistence that “The Trade” is the cause of all of the Dodgers’ troubles and that no other team in baseball operates under such a burden and Mark used profanity and made a personal attack. Then, others decided to pile on, either making attacks on Mark or each other, and somehow no one is posting about the Dodgers and people are expressing opinions about a criminal conviction that was over 30 years ago and apparently overturned.
The cause of all of this is tone. People who express opinions should expect disagreement some of the time. People who belittle others, use personal insults, profanity and ad hominem attacks shouldn’t be surprised if the same are reflected back toward them.
Rick
That is what I thought, about that exchange.
I didn’t understand when Mark said he didn’t get to respond, because I saw his response.
Both Mark and Bluto, can come across condescending, at times.
I don’t even think Bluto knows he is doing that, sometimes.
I think he is a quite literal guy.
I am not here to judge anyone, especially in these type of cases.
And I think the fact Mark and his daughter are close, gives me the truth.
Damn this place is spiraling into the abyss…
Baseball people, baseball….
ST right around the corner… Be happy… 2B problem solved in/around ST… Teams lined up in search of pitchers and OF’s due to ST injuries… Endless possibilities!!!
Dodgers win the 2017 NL West and from there we hope and pray…
Pretty ugly stuff, disturbing. I have enjoyed reading these comments for years, and still do (mostly)
I am a Dodger Fan, through and through. Hardcore.
Some of the content here is too much personal information.
I totally agree about anonymity, unless you are a saint.
People get upset, which is part of the entertainment. Would be nice if their ammo could
be limited to prior opinions or suggestions that do or don’t deserve ridicule.
I read the link to the court case and was sorry I did. I didn’t read it completely, just enough
to know that it was none of my business and I’m not interested in making it my business’
Life is short. I enjoy being a Dodger fan, always have, and want to continue, always
There was a sidebar in a textbook on industrial plant design that was an example of brainstorming. There was a need for more space and in the example someone said why don’t we put the addition on the roof.
Some would say that was stupid and literally taken it was stupid. But it led to constructing a mezzanine that solved the problem with far less cost than building an addition or moving to a new site.
Most of the responses that bug me in here are those that mock the build on the roof idea and fail to try to move that idea to a mezzanine. First instinct for many is to reply with sarcasm, attack the comment, or attack the person making the comment.
Its odd that we agree on so many things and yet still bicker, sometimes crudely.
I think I have only used a swear word twice here. Once to respond to Mark and once to respond to Rick. I don’t like sarcasm sometimes more than other times.
I too have gotten caught up in all of this sometimes. I normally come on to comment on the Dodgers and never ever just looking for a fight. There are some well informed fans on here, and for the most part, all are liked by me. There are fans on here who know a lot more about saber metrics and all the new stats used to rate players than I ever will. I just happen to be old school and still think RBI’s and Wins by a pitcher count for something. I also am a firm believer in ERA. I know it can get skewed pretty well in the early going when a bad outing can send it soaring. But in the end this is what happens. Good pitchers put up good ERA’s and get wins. Good hitters drive in runs and hit in the clutch. Fringe players are like blind squirrels, they all find a nut once in a while. Bad defensive players can get better…..with lots of practice. But the thing that overcomes all is the drive and desire to get better. That is one reason guys like Kershaw and Turner have gotten to where they are. My biggest gripe perhaps is that there are a few guys on here that no matter what you say, they want to dispute it or call you unknowledgeable or dumb. They want you to think the way they do, and that is not America. My thoughts and how I view both management and the team are just as valid as some saber metric guy trying to convince me that Grandal, or any other player is better than what I see with my own eyes, and I watch a lot of games and have been doing so for over 60 years. I know the difference between a good player, a so so player and a superstar. I have seen them all. So I allow that you have your opinion and I have mine. We can agree to disagree, and not have a need to belittle the other guy, or in MJ’s case, lady. Mark says he has left. If so , I wish him well. He stuck to his guns and thought most of what he posted was gospel. I respect him for that. I do not respect a lot of the things he said to me and other people. But that is water under the bridge.
Bum
Don’t take everything so seriously, and try to consider the source, when you get a response.
You have some very good responses yourself, because you have a way with words too.
And I know they are not in a personal manner, so I am not saying that.
Wow. Not only do I have no idea what Bumsrap meant (but I do like the idea of creative thinking), but I’m not even sure what made Mark so angry.
Anyway, his posts were largely self-important and holier-than-thou, I don’t like that stuff much, but who cares?
Michael Norris sometimes posts here with stuff that I not only don’t agree with, but also can’t really relate to. But he always frames it as opinion, and everyone gets the right to that. IMO, Mark never did that, he always implied he knew things as fact, or “had sources.”
I think forums are always better with more people, but maybe this one isn’t? I’m not sure.
I think there are more forums available now and each one has its own structure and personality. Talking Dodgers online has been diluted. I’ve tried a few others, didn’t feel the conversations flowed evenly or in some cases organically. I like talking baseball with those who like to talk baseball. I don’t mind some people telling me I’m full of it because I know them to be stand up guys, and girls, who have a sense of humor and don’t mean me ill will. That wasn’t Mark. I learned that about him by interacting with him for a long time. Most of you guys I trust. Some appear ill tempered or, as Michael just alluded to, come in looking for a fight.
Maybe with Mark starting his site up again those who want to get out of here will have a place to go where they will find like minds. Better like all things FAZ if you show up over there.
I appreciate that there Bluto because that is basically all it is, my opinion. I know I am not close to always being right, and I also concede I have no clue what saber metrics is all about, and in truth, nor do I care. I have and always will judge a player on what I see on the field when watching a game. That is the way it has been done since the beginning of the game. You can see who is clutch and who is not. And I have seen some of the best. I have seen the borderline guys too and I appreciate that fact that the game is not easy. So usually I give struggling players a break. But, there are times when frustration sets in, and you just naturally have to say something. You cheer for the players and always want them to do well. You hope the front office makes moves that make the team better. I have seen good deals and some very bad ones. And I know for a fact not everyone is going to agree on them. I remember when Pedro was traded for DeShields. I thought, wow, we finally have a 2nd baseman who can play the game and we gave up a guy with 1 decent season in the majors to get him! Brilliant……not so much. Pedro is a HOFer, and DeShields a bad memory. I have had different feelings when a favorite is dealt, or leaves by free agency. I thought they made a mistake letting Garvey walk. In my opinion at the time, he should have been a Dodger for life. Same with Duke Snider and Willie Davis. I loved those players. I shed not one tear when Sutton left, I could not stand him, always thought he was arrogant. Matt Kemp was hard for me because I saw him mature into that role as a very dangerous hitter. After he hit the wall at Coors, I pulled for him to get back to what he was. I knew it was not going to be easy. He almost got there, and then he was traded. I knew the reasons, I read all the reports and listened to the MLB network guys talk about it, but I never have and never will think they got equal value in return. What I think of that trade has been well documented, but he is a Brave now, and they have moved on, so have I. As for the front office guys, well they have a way of doing things that is much different from the way the Dodgers have been run before. That is fine. In time they might make some moves I actually like. But so far their track record to me anyway, SUCKS> The team was good when they got here. It has not gotten better. Oh yes, they have not traded away any of the top kids, but they have not gotten to the promised land either and they have blown it two consecutive trade deadlines, IMHO. Hopefully, this year brings new beginnings and a better end result. 28 years is a long time. At least to those of us who have been around long enough to see all 6 Dodger World championship teams. I would like to see one more at least before I take my leave. Oh yeah, and obviously. I hated the Piazza trade……worst deal in team history bar none. IMHO.
As I was reading that I was thinking – “what about Piazza dammit!”
I’m old school too, but reading about sabermetrics I feel the new stuff is just the old stuff stretched out to the third power. OPS has been around forever, it just wasn’t quantified as it is now. Old school guys know about on base percentage and slugging percentage, and valued both. I don’t remember adding them together. We also knew about ERA and that it would be better with good defenses and in parks with enormous foul ground area, and worse in small confined parks and on teams that were “weak up the middle”. We just didn’t have a name like FIP to quantify it. Old school guys don’t need sabermetrics to understand what good players look like, but, if I may, I recommend you read up on it. You may enjoy the process. I did. I get why it’s valued. Information is leverage. The good teams are those that know odds and work them. Algorithms are vital in gaining leverage. That and Twitter account. (Sorry man, couldn’t resist)
What is an algorithm????? I understand where you are coming from my friend. I just trust my eyes more than I do stats on a piece of paper. My eyes tell me Corey Seager has a chance to be a true super star. I think the guy has the mental toughness and the eagerness to learn that can only make him better. They also tell me that Yasmani Grandal is about as good as he is ever going to be. I see no desire in the man to improve his strikeout stats, nor to concentrate on being a better defensive catcher. I love reading about baseball, but saber metrics to me are BORING and repetitive. You get 30 hits every 100 at bats you hit 300. That’s all I need to know. Guys who come through in the clutch, well they are a rare breed. Ethier a few years ago had 6 walk off hits. 3 of them HR’s. No one else on the team came close. He knew how to hit in the clutch. 2015 that guy was Turner. Last year it was spread out among a few players. Trayce Thompson had a huge walk off homer. But I have always liked the lineups that ran the same 8 guys out there everyday. And it has been a while since the Dodgers had that.
I agree with everything you just said, but the Society for American Baseball Research has decided to anal-ize the game using algorithms. Get with it or get left behind.
You surprised me bluto.
An analogy is a comparison in which an idea or a thing is compared to another thing that is quite different from it.
Here are four key groundrules that are useful when conducting a brainstorming session:
1. There are no dumb ideas. Period. It is a brainstorming session, not a serious matter that requires only serious solutions. Remember, this is one of the more fun tools of quality, so keep the entire team involved!
2. Don’t criticize other people’s ideas. This is not a debate, discussion or forum for one person to display superiority over another.
3. Build on other people’s ideas. Often an idea suggested by one person can trigger a bigger and/or better idea by another person. Or a variation of an idea on the board could be the next “velcro” idea. It is this building of ideas that leads to out of the box thinking and fantastic ideas.
4. Reverse the thought of “quality over quantity.” Here we want quantity; the more creative ideas the better. As a facilitator, you can even make it a challenge to come up with as many ideas as possible and compare this team’s performance to the last brainstorming session you conducted.
That sounds like a think tank.
I think Sabermetrics was invented by and for those execs of low payroll clubs. For financial reasons they were forced to deal with, shall we say “less expensive” players, and sabermetrics was invented to justify or make these players look better than they really are, to appease fans and hopefully to snooker other GMs in trades. What was it Barnum said about underestimating intelligence? Just my undocumented opinion, of course…
A sucker is born everyday.
Every minute of every day.
Thanks Badger
SABRmetrics is a short-hand term for the analysis of baseball statistics and history. The Society for American Baseball Research (SABR)
“… had its beginnings in Cooperstown, New York. It was the brainchild of L. Robert Davids, who on August 10, 1971, gathered 15 other baseball researchers at the National Baseball Hall of Fame to form the organization.” (See SABR website).
Bill James’ pioneering use of statistics is generally credited with giving impetus to the movement.
SABRmetrics were not invented by small market clubs. They were among the first to use them though. Since they couldn’t afford to throw money around or make mistakes when signing players, they used numbers to look for “market inefficiencies” and find bargains overlooked by others. While Billy Beane of the A’s was among the 1st to use SABRmetrics, Friedman, Epstein and other have also relied on them. Now all teams have analytic departments and use them to one extent or another.
If Mark re-opens LA DodgerTalk and anyone wants to check it out, here’s the web address http://www.forums.mlb.com/discussions/Los_Angeles_Dodgers/General/LA_Doddger_Talk/ml-dodgers/144783.1?redirCnt=2
I wish him well.
No thanks.
double no thanks. If I want to be insulted I will talk to my son……
The hype that came with Friedman was that he would build a team that balanced sabermetrics with old-fashioned scouting to evaluate players.
Yes Friedman said he only uses saber metrics, as a tool.
Our GM was with the A’s, and I think he is more a pure saber metric, type of guy.
Yeah, Sabermetric…
Are you sure MJ?
Because in this article:
http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgers/la-sp-dodgers-andrew-friedman-20141106-story.html
The writer reports:
“I’m not just a numbers guy,” Friedman said…. “He’s not one of these guys that had no baseball background as a player or otherwise and came into the game and thought they were going to reinvent the game, show everybody else how smart they were,” Gerry Hunsicker said. “It was clear from the beginning of our relationship that he has as much respect for me that I had for him. He wanted to take the best nuggets from the traditional aspects of baseball and incorporate it with other ways to skin the cat.”
Please, comments about skinning cats are not well received here…
I wouldn’t worry Sylvester. That guy is mining nuggets to skin cats. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about. You’re safe.
Bluto
I have heard Friedman say, a few times, that he only uses saber metrics as a tool.
Bluto
That is what I am saying.
He doesn’t focus on numbers, he will only use them, as a tool.
Ah! I misread, and apologize, I thought you meant something to the effect of:
“The only tool he used is….”
Bluto
Friedman isn’t our GM.
Bluto
I figured you must of done that.
I am guilty of that, sometimes to.
Well, it would appear they are halfway to that goal.
There is nothing wrong with Sabermetrics as such, they are just a tool to use to evaluate players, they are statistics, that’s all. Unfortunately they are sometimes misused, focusing attention on one small part of a player’s capabilities while ignoring his lack of ability as an overall player.
It is really hard to value defense in that way.
And most sabers, would probably say that.
Of course everyone wants good defense.
But if a player can make most of the routine plays, and has a great bat, and provides a lot of offense, I think it is hard to value how much the defense should be weighed, against the offense.
And I know they already have ways they believe does this, but I am not so sure they are that accurate.
Look at Kemp versus Puig, in rightfield.
Does Puig’s defense, make up for the offense that Kemp provides, in right?
Poll: What Will Dodgers Do About Second Base?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/01/poll-what-will-dodgers-do-about-second-base.html